“According to Halacha (Jewish law), we are not allowed to save a goy (non-Jew) from death. For example, if one sees a goy drowning in a river and he cries to the Jew that he should rescue him by throwing the safety ring, if no other goy will ever know that this cry was ignored and no danger will emerge from it to Jews, the Jew is not allowed to throw the safety ring according to the Halacha”
Syrian chemical weapons victims
A reader writes:
After a writer wrote on the Yiddish website iVelt.com that Jews need to help the people of Syria, and that it will be a sanctification of God’s name if Jews try to help, iVelt contributor An’im Zemiros wrote the following (translated from Yiddish):
The glory of God and the sanctification of His name can only happen by doing God’s wishes. According to Halacha (Jewish law), we are not allowed to save a goy (non-Jew) from death. For example, if one sees a goy drowning in a river and he cries to the Jew that he should rescue him by throwing the safety ring, if no other goy will ever know that this cry was ignored and no danger will emerge from it to Jews, the Jew is not allowed to throw the safety ring according to the Halacha.
Sanctification of God’s name does not mean to imitate the goy or find favor in his eyes, it means to follow the code of Jewish law, in all its details.
After several contributors applauded the comment, but wrote that the Internet is not the place to write this law, because it can be picked up by non-Jews, the comment was removed.
Worthless piece of gutter trash – typical of the filth Chabad has been taking in over the past three decades. Fortunately, you and your fellow psychopaths will be the destruction of your obscene, idolatrous cult.
The Vilna Gaon knew how to deal with your kind. I’m only sorry he was prevented from finishing the job.
On the contrary, self-preservation is a law of nature. Every conscious being regards it as such. Those principles that lead us to care for others (not just ones family, or exclusively ones own tribe), only such principles can be considered ‘holy’.
Menachem, on your view the following statement reflects an admirable and holy sentiment:
‘As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.’
The rest of us here find this kind of thing cynical, and in the context of a spiritual tradition, truly perverse. That is the difference between you and your opponents. Your opponents look at the content of the tradition and know, by the light inside them, that this way of thinking is base, revolting and to be condemned.
All sorts of chicanery and false philosophy has been used on you to convince you that you have no internal light and that you are entirely dependent on these texts for any sense of morality. I assume that is why you feel the need to defend a doctrine which cannot be defended on the grounds of decency, let alone holiness.
Chicago Sam,
It all boil down to a holy life vs an unholy one. Without the observance of Torah and mitvos one has a “bestial,(“animalistic”) existence hence the severe condemnation in the passage you cited of those who choose not to– how much moreso gentiles who don’t keep the sheva mitzvos.
Since you made an oblique reference to eating the BLT bedafka on Thursday, Rosh Hashana, as if it would be merely an innocuous act, Here is what my Rav once told us:
“There was once a–yet-to-be observant Jew who offered an observation to me to the contrary of what I had been teaching him for many years re the misfortune of eating voluntarily on Yom Kippur:
Rabbi didn’t you teach us many years ago that it is an issur korais to eat on Yom Kippur?
Well not only did I eat on that day, but I regularly devour on Yom Kipur a ham sandwich! And, look I am still alive!’
So what did I reply, ‘You say that you are still alive…,but I say,according to the reality of the Torah, you are really dead!
A word to the wise…
Haredim’s view of Gentiles is not much different from their attitude toward non-Orthodox Jews, which they predicate upon the interpretation:
אנציקלופדיה תלמודית כרך א, אהבת ישראל [טור ריא]
Examples of this can be found in the Gemorah in Pesachim 49b:
אכן אין מצות ואהבת לרעך אלא על אחיך בתורה ומצוות, שרעך נקרא רעך בתורה ובמצוות, או ש”כמוך” פירושו כמוך במצוות.
וכך יש לנהוג בעם נארץ, על פי הגמרא במסכת פסחים מ”ט ע”ב:
תנו רבנן: לעולם ימכור אדם כל מה שיש לו וישא בת תלמיד חכם. לא מצא בת תלמיד חכם – ישא בת גדולי הדור. לא מצא בת גדולי הדור – ישא בת ראשי כנסיות, לא מצא בת ראשי כנסיות – ישא בת גבאי צדקה. לא מצא בת גבאי צדקה – ישא בת מלמדי תינוקות. ולא ישא בת עמי הארץ, מפני שהן שקץ, ונשותיהן שרץ, ועל בנותיהן הוא אומר (דברים כ”ז) ארור שוכב עם כל בהמה.
תניא, רבי אומר: עם הארץ אסור לאכול בשר שנאמר (ויקרא י”א) זאת תורת הבהמה והעוף, כל העוסק בתורה – מותר לאכול בשר בהמה ועוף, וכל שאינו עוסק בתורה – אסור לאכול בשר בהמה ועוף. אמר רבי אלעזר: עם הארץ מותר לנוחרו ביום הכיפורים שחל להיות בשבת. אמרו לו תלמידיו: רבי, אמור לשוחטו! – אמר להן: זה – טעון ברכה, וזה – אינו טעון ברכה. אמר רבי אלעזר: עם הארץ אסור להתלוות עמו בדרך, שנאמר (דברים ל’) כי הוא חייך ואורך ימיך, על חייו לא חס – על חיי חבירו לא כל שכן. אמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני אמר רבי יוחנן: עם הארץ מותר לקורעו כדג. אמר רבי שמואל בר יצחק: ומגבו. תניא, אמר רבי עקיבא: כשהייתי עם הארץ אמרתי: מי יתן לי תלמיד חכם ואנשכנו כחמור. אמרו לו תלמידיו: רבי, אמור ככלב! – אמר להן: זה – נושך ושובר עצם, וזה – נושך ואינו שובר עצם. תניא, היה רבי מאיר אומר: כל המשיא בתו לעם הארץ – כאילו כופתה ומניחה לפני ארי. מה ארי דורס ואוכל ואין לו בושת פנים – אף עם הארץ מכה ובועל ואין לו בושת פנים. תניא, רבי אליעזר אומר: אילמלא אנו צריכים להם למשא ומתן – היו הורגין אותנו. תנא רבי חייא: כל העוסק בתורה לפני עם הארץ – כאילו בועל ארוסתו בפניו, שנאמר (דברים ל”ג) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה, אל תקרי מורשה אלא מאורסה. גדולה שנאה ששונאין עמי הארץ לתלמיד חכם, יותר משנאה ששונאין אומות העולם את ישראל, ונשותיהן יותר מהן. תנא: שנה ופירש – יותר מכולן. תנו רבנן: ששה דברים נאמרו בעמי הארץ: אין מוסרין להן עדות, ואין מקבלין ממנו עדות, ואין מגלין להן סוד, ואין ממנין אותן אפוטרופוס על היתומים, ואין ממנין אותן אפוטרופוס על קופה של צדקה, ואין מתלוין עמהן בדרך. ויש אומרים: אף אין מכריזין על אבידתו. – ותנא קמא: זמנין דנפיק מיניה זרעא מעליא ואכיל ליה, שנאמר (איוב כ”ז) יכין וצדיק ילבש.
Our Rabbis taught: Let a man always sell all he has and marry the daughter of a scholar. If he does not find1 the daughter of a scholar, let him marry the daughter of [one of] the great men of the generation.2 If he does not find the daughter of [one of] the great men of the generation, let him marry the daughter of the head of synagogues. If he does not find the daughter of the head of synagogues,3 let him marry the daughter of a charity treasurer. If he does not find the daughter of a charity treasurer, let him marry the daughter of an elementary school-teacher, but let him not marry the daughter of an ‘am ha-arez, because they are detestable and their wives are vermin, and of their daughters it is said, Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast.4
It was taught, Rabbi said: An ‘am ha-arez may not eat the flesh of cattle, for it is said, This is the law [Torah] of the beast, and of the fowl;5 whoever engages in [the study of] the Torah may eat the flesh of beast and fowl, but he who does not engage in [the study of] the Torah may not eat the flesh of beast and fowl.
R. Eleazar said: An ‘am ha-arez, it is permitted to stab him [even] on the Day of Atonement which falls on the Sabbath. Said his disciples to him, Master, say to slaughter him [ritually]? He replied: This [ritual slaughter] requires a benediction, whereas that [stabbing] does not require a benediction. R. Eleazar said: One must not join company with an ‘am ha-arez on the road, because it is said, for that [the Torah] is thy life, and the length of thy days:6 [seeing that] he has no care [pity] for his own life,7 how much the more for the life of his companions! R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in R. Johanan’s name: One may tear an ‘am haarez like a fish! Said R. Samuel b. Isaac: And [this means] along his back.
It was taught, R. Akiba said: When I was an ‘am ha-arez8 I said: I would that I had a scholar [before me], and I would maul him like an ass. Said his disciples to him, Rabbi, say like a dog! The former bites and breaks the bones, while the latter bites but does not break the bones, he answered them.
It was taught, R. Meir used to say: Whoever marries his daughter to an ‘am ha-arez, is as though he bound and laid her before a lion: just as a lion tears [his prey] and devours it and has no shame, so an ‘am ha-arez strikes and cohabits and has no shame.
It was taught, R. Eliezer said: But that we are necessary to them for trade, they would kill us. R. Hiyya taught: Whoever studies9 the Torah in front of an ‘am ha-arez, is as though he cohabited with his betrothed in his presence,10 for it is said, Moses commanded us a law, an inheritance [morashah] of the congregation of Jacob:11 read not morashah but me’orasah [the betrothed].12 Greater is the hatred wherewith the ‘amme ha-arez, hate the scholar than the hatred wherewith the heathens hate Israel, and their wives [hate even] more than they. It was taught: He who has studied and then abandoned [the Torah] [hates the scholar] more than all of them.13 Our Rabbis taught: Six things were said of the ‘amme ha-arez’: We do not commit testimony to them; we do not accept testimony from them; we do not reveal a secret to them; we do not appoint them as guardians for orphans; we do not appoint them stewards14 over charity funds; and we must not join their company on the road. Some say, We do not proclaim their losses too.15 And the first Tanna?16 — Virtuous seed may sometimes issue from him, and they will enjoy17 it, as it is said, He will prepare it, and the just shall put it on.18
[Soncino trans.]
The point of this discussion is clear: Once we demonize our fellow non-Orthodox Jews, it is a small step before we demonize or marginalize the Gentile, as seen in the Haredi/Hassidic view mentioned above.
Posted by: Menachem | September 02, 2013 at 10:55 AM
You’re lying again. It was CHABAD that perpetrated most
Of the abuse , CHABAD that protected the molesters , CHABAD. That persecutes the victim families. It’s typical of your deceit and obfuscation that you equate Chabad with Jews (usually secular) who contribute so much to the world.
“Yes, that Melbourne community–which would have been much worse off without the overall influence Lubavitch had on the denizens there in toto. The same could be said about the world at large without the Jews!”
Only a vile, irredeemable piece of filth such as yourself could make a statement such as this.
The world might have been worse off without the Jews, but it would be infinitely better off without you. I hope this festers upon your soul like an open wound as you pray to be forgiven for your sins in the coming days.
Yes, that Melbourne community–which would have been much worse off without the overall influence Lubavitch had on the denizens there in toto. The same could be said about the world at large without the Jews!
Posted by: Menachem | September 02, 2013 at 10:07 AM
The same Melbourne community that enabled molesters, covers up molestation, persecuted victims of molestation and persecuted the families and advocates for victims.
Menachem, I’ll be thinking of you on Thursday as I eat my BLT while cursing your dead con man.
Jeff, do you know what the difference is between
a salesman and a con man? The con man truly believes in his product or service.
This is an example of salesmanship:
The worldwide list compiled by Lunavitch of Sukkahs began in 1994, as a local service to the Jewish community in Melbourne, Australia. In the first year there were only nine Sukkahs on the list as it was organized only a few days before Sukkos. Last year there were 442 Sukkahs listed, located in 27 countries.
This is an example of con manship:
Whoever sold you the blt and convinced you as a Jew that it won’t hurt you, but will be good for you. The latter is the one you should curse– but only after you cut off you nose to spite your face as is your wont.
When Mendel is allowed to post, it confirms the twisted agenda he and his cult disseminate. Their pretense of tolerance and acceptance is stripped away. We see them for what they truly are. Hopefully, that will also open the eyes of others who have been taken in by their missionary propaganda.
‘As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.’
It sounds like you may be in line for the Nobel Prize for Peace!
Anuran, your grandfather sounds like a wonderful man; and I’m sure there are many instances in which Torah (and religion in general) has motivated people to do great, kind and loving deeds.
Gollum, glad to see we’re on the same page here less some strong language.
The sad thing is plenty of observant Jews have used the version of halacha they followed as a reason to be kind, to save lives, to love justice.
My grandfather was as Old Country Galitzianer as you could be. Burned his toenail clippings, shomer shabbos and everything. He made his living in real estate. Sometimes a farmer died leaving an elderly widow or a large family with no way of making a living. He would quietly write off the note or forgo payment until the family was back on its feet. He said it was a mitzvah to take care of widows and orphans.
His religion gave him a lot of strange rules. But it included a good heart and allowed him to live in the real world.
That’s the difference. Charedism closes off the heart first from Gentiles, then from Jews who aren’t quite the same and finally, I suppose, from oneself. And it doesn’t make it possible to live a good life as a religious Jew in the real world. That’s what makes it something to flee.
When the mentioned Halacha was ‘written’ there were no such other people that worshiped the same G-d that we do
Of course Chabad in particular regards non-Jews as subhuman because of the Tanya
Isa, we do not worship the same G-d as they do!
They worship a shituf and as such they according to Nodeh B’Yehuda remain in the category of idoloters:
According to the Nodah Biyhudah,* the Rama agrees with the Rambam that any religion of shittuf would be forbidden to gentiles (nor did the Rama ever indicate that Christianity was shittuf rather than idolatry).Nodah Biyhudah – Mahdura Tinyasa 148
“Behold, I say that they have tied a rope to a rope and a strand to a strand; where does this ‘chacham’ get this idea that the gentiles are not commanded concerning shittuf?! And nevertheless this thing is found in the mouths of many chachamim… and I have toiled and I have not found this thing either in the Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud, and not in any of the gedolei harishonim; and if this was true, then the Rambam should have brought in Hilchos Melachim as a psak halacha that a gentile is not commanded on avoda zarah with shittuf, so why did he exempt this din? He also contests that, regarding avoda zarah, there is no difference between a Jew and a gentile, for behold, an explicit baraisa in Maseches Sanhedrin 56b states, ‘Everything that a Jewish beis din executes upon, b’nei Noah are warned concerning them’; and likewise in Hilchos Melachim 9:2… and it seems to me that the fact that it has become commonplace for people to say that b’nei Noah are not warned concerning shittuf is according to an error they made in reading Tosafos in Maseches Bechoros 2b…. In light of [Tosafos] the Rama poskaned in Orech Chairn 156…. These words have been misconstrued by many chachamim who reasoned that the intention of the Rama is that b’nei Noah are not commanded concerning serving avodah zarah in shittuf. However, this is not in fact the case. The intention of the Tosephos and the Rama is that combining the Name of Heaven with something else in an oath does not constitute the actual worship of idolatry; rather he is combining the Name of Heaven with something else, but he is not calling in the name of Elokim and he is not saying ‘you are my g-d.’ Instead, he is merely mentioning him in his oath with the Name of Heaven in a manner of honor, regarding which we find a prohibition upon Israel, as it is written ‘and in His Name shall you swear’; this is a warning to Israel not to swear except in His Name (blessed be He) and not to combine the Name of Heaven and something else, as the Rambam wrote in 11:2 of Hilchos Shevuos —and the gentiles are not warned regarding this shittuf. However, regarding the service of avoda zarah with shittuf, there is no difference between a Jew and a gentile!… The general principle that we have received is that anything for which a Jewish court administers death upon, the gentiles are also forewarned upon, as we wrote above. Afterwards I saw in the Sefer Meil Tzeddaka in sec. 22, who also makes the same distinction; however, he did not bring the proof which I have written here….”
“””Now it is possible to interpret the reference to ‘idolaters’ as pagan idol worshippers of that particular era so as to argue that this harsh prohibition does not apply to Christians and Muslims (as the Rambam does)”””
I believe this is what a MO rabbi would rule. When the mentioned Halacha was ‘written’ there were no such other people that worshiped the same G-d that we do
Of course Chabad in particular regards non-Jews as subhuman because of the Tanya
Should Jews do what ever they can to save Coptic Christians ala “Never Again!”? No! That motto inextricably refers to us; not to Gentiles.
Arik Sharon said it best re Sabra and Shatilla wherein he did nothing to prevent or stop Christians from killing Muslims whom they hated because of generations of assaults:
Arabs kill Arabs and the Jews get blamed for it.”
As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.
Let’s go back to the Apollo 13 crisis of April 1970. One of the top engineers at Grumman is an Orthodox Jew. The entire engineer staff will be needed to help the LM Aquarius perform a critical burn that will ensure the spacecraft’s return to earth. The burn must be done at 11:00 pm Friday night. If it’s not done, the crew will be lost.
Does anyone really believe that if this engineer said in front of the world that his religious beliefs forbid him to rescue these astronauts on the Shabbat because they’re non-Jews, “….the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew….”?
How about every Jewish community being dead five minutes later?
“….the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew….”
Never mind that making an attempt is what decent human beings do. The strictures of religion preclude doing what most would consider the decent thing.
Sickening and despicable. Another reason not to be observant.
The strict Halacha is the same as English common law that one is not legally obliged to rescue someone and can therefore not be punished for failing to do so. One is not one’s brother’s keeper.
That said it is a big mitzvah to do so because “neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbor” Leviticus 19.16
The rabbis have interpreted ‘thy neighbor’ restrictively to exclude non-Jews. Some have gone further and said that not only is it no mitzvah to rescue non-Jews, it is prohibited to do so unless you can get something out of it. It is similar to interest on loans. Some rabbis hold that not only are you allowed to charge non-Jews interest on loans but that you must.
It is however important to understand that the prohibition against saving non-Jews for free (or lending them money without interest) is considered a rabbinical prohibition (de rabbanan, not d’orisah) and there is no punishment for its breach and it can be ignored if it is advantageous to do so. That explains why from a Halachic point of view the rabbinic prohibition is of no practical relevance and Hatzolah has no problem rescuing non-Jews.
In Yoel Mechanic’s list of questions, he missed asking whether a prohibition is biblical or rabbinical. All these unPC prohibitions against saving the life of a gentile or returning his lost property or giving him free loans are all rabbinical and there is an overriding principle that you can ignore rabbinical prohibitions should they prove too burdensome, expensive or dangerous. So from a practical point of view all these unPC prohibitions in Avodah Zarah can safely be ignored. The immature idiot at the yiddish website hate for gentiles made him forget that overriding principle.
However when a non-Jew needs rescuing on Shabbos, then you may be faced with a d’orisah (biblical) prohibition, if the rescue requires breaching the av malachos. (If you can rescue the non-Jew by not breaching Shabbos or only breaching rabbinical as opposed to biblical prohibitions then this is not a serious problem). The halacha allows breach of the av malachos to save the life of a non-Jew only if failing to do so would submit the Jewish community to violent retaliation. This reason is sometimes given for allowing Hatzolah to save non-Jews on Shabbos but most Hareidi rabbis say that in today’s democratic and law abiding Western countries, the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew. However in most cases you can avoid breaching a biblical prohibition on Shabbos through a shinui or asking a gentile to carry out the ‘work’ so again this issue is somewhat irrelevant in actual practice.
What a BLATANT LIE!
Posted by: Tastekosher | August 31, 2013 at 09:56 PM
I spoke to a friend who’s a YU musmach. He said that its true. The only reason we save them is because otherwise they might not save us when we need them.
Anuran, we are basically on the same page. In my first response to you I was pointing out that an anti-semite hates all Jews (as a race) and is not merely opposed to an odious doctrine (that many Jews, like you and me oppose anyway). Immoral laws in any ancient texts do not justify the hatred of a whole race of people – especially if many of them are opposed to the text anyway! This could have been used to cause anti-semitism and fuel it – but it does not logically justify it.
In my second response I was reacting to your strong polemical language:
‘Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. ‘
A garish caricature which is reminiscent of much anti-semitic propaganda.
‘This is the simple truth of your version of Judaism.’
Actually, I can’t be bothered to hold a version of Judaism – I’m attached to neither the religious doctrines nor the culture. And like you I actively oppose the Haredi version for obvious reasons…
This law is disgusting and reinforces my decision to abandon Judaism. It really shows the non-divine nature of Jewish law, not to mention its lack of compassion and love for all human beings.
“Under both Halacha and common law one is not under any LEGAL (as opposed to moral) obligation to rescue any person from death unless one has directly caused that person to be in that position. So an adult who comes upon a small child drowning in 3 feet of water is not legally obliged to rescue that child. However if someone pushes another into a pool than one is legally liable if he drowns.”
Barry, this is 100% wrong!!
There is a clear halachik requirement to save a persons life.It is stated in the BIBLE “lo taamod al dam re’echa”, which means that one should not idle when another persons life is in danger.The Talmud relates that one who sees a woman drowning and does not want to save her because of misplaced piety, is an ignorant fool.
In fact some rule that one must put theur own lives in jeopardy to save another person.
I did not gain as much clarity on these halachos from the discussion as I would have liked. Consider these categories:
1. obligatory (ie required, presumably with punishment for not fulfilling the obligation)
2. recommended
3. not recommended
4. forbidden
I was unsure from the above discussion and felt at times the boundaries between these categories were obscured, or conflated.
Let me give a contrast with American law to see the point. A US Navel officer once told me that although she received extensive training in the Navy she would not attempt to save someone from drowning. Why? Because she learned in her training that here is no obligation to save anyone in US law. However if you attempt to save, and something goes wrong during the rescue you open yourself up to all kinds of litigation. She has made her decision to protect herself in advance.
I’ve heard that there are various so-called Good Samaritan laws that could serve to protect someone who does stop at a traffic accident, for instance, and attempt to save a life. I am not familiar with the details, but this further underscores the concept that there seems to be NO obligation to save a life you come across under such circumstances. In fact, volunteers have need of protection from legal action.
Therefore I hope people can see how more clarity is needed when understanding any legal system; and how it operates historically and in current contemporary life.
What a BLATANT LIE! My husband as a Hatzolah member has numerous times tried to save the lives of non-jews! And would again too! Perhaps not at the risk of his own life – but PLEASE! What foolish lies thou spreadest…
Any religious leader who teaches his followers that their favored deity values the life of a non-believer less than that of a believer is a despicable and immoral fool. Teaching that one should try saving the life of a non-believer only if someone’s watching who might, should the believer fail to exert himself fully in an attempt to save that life, cast aspersions on the believer’s religious group is to divorce himself and those who toe that line, in my opinion, from the community of decent moral human beings. Have these people never heard of the Golden Rule?
Am I being judgmental? Damn right I am. In this case we’re talking about Jews. Anyone who adheres to that viewpoint is no Jew I’d want to have anything to do with. Cheat, steal, lie, exploit – do anything they want to non-Haredim including to non-Haredi Jews. These people make Shylock look like an angel. All Jews will be tarred with the same brush in the mind of any non-Jew who has had a negative encounter with some of these amoral lowlifes and we will all come away the worse for it.
the standard charidie defense that no one has brought up is, yes we only save because we might get caught not saving but since there is no morality w/o god or the torah it must be that they (the goyim) only save for that reason so y should we be more morally bound to save them than they r to save us didn’t any of you learn in yeshiva?
Ah, so I’m a Nazi and want to kill Jews because Jewish theology is abhorrent. Try harder.
What we have here is a theology which requires you to treat most of humanity as sub-human. Under halacha Gentiles don’t have real souls. Their works are evil. We go out of our way to save a Jewish life. We can ignore the lives of goy filth unless it makes us look bad. We demand equal treatment in their Courts. Our Torah requires they be given kangaroo Courts with the skids greased to the executioner’s block.
This is the simple truth of your version of Judaism. Recognizing it is the first step towards changing it. If it doesn’t change all moral people should abandon it. That applies to anyone’s theology, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or Flying Spaghetti Monster.
lets not forget since this applies to many of us. one cannot save an apikoros live on shabbos either if you know they will never repent. But one may save that live on shabbas since just maybe he will repent and become shommer shabbos again.
Anuran, no, I’m afraid you are bullshitting yourself here: there is ‘tortuous logic’ and there is clear thinking. The concept ‘Judaism’ is allowing you to conflate entirely different things: the Jewish people as a race (genetic, if you like), Jewish culture (eating caneidalach) and Jewish Religion. As in Christianity there are various forms (Catholic, protestant, etc) so in Judaism there are variations. Some types of Judaism (the religion) claim that those texts do reflect the prejudice and bigotry of the times. These groups believe that religion is something that needs to evolve.
Furthermore, your phrase ‘your kind’ is worrying. It reflects the same us-them mentality as these texts represent.
‘Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. ‘
You sound like you have stepped straight out of the 3rd Reich: this kind of hysterical and grotesque rhetoric doesn’t impress anyone here. Whether it comes from Jews who despise ‘goyim’ or ‘goyim’ who despise Jews it all comes out sounding like the same hate-dreched drivel.
Sorry , Gollum, but it’s different. If Judaism requires you to let the Goy die (unless God forbid it would make the Chosen People look bad), if it teaches that stealing from the Untermenschen and the government is fine as long as you don’t get caught it is fundamentally corrupt and evil.
Don’t try bullshitting me. Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. If real Torah-True Judaism teaches this it deserves to be eradicated. There is nothing holy about it.
Gollum recommended seeing Daat Emet on Gentiles in Halacha and I know of no better concise source. And for those of you who want sources from Chazal, this is the place to find them:
Barry @ 6:07PM
I actually learned the concept of “tinok shenishba” in a Tanya class at Chabad. So the generalization re rejecting the concept of “captured children” does not apply to all Chassidim.
ah-pee-chorus @8:55PM
++++one may not violate shabbos to save a life…..+++++
For the sake of accuracy, that should have specified “the life of a goy”.
Pikuach nefesh just for yidden. What about pedophiles, does pikuach nefesh apply? or is it just righteous gentiles whom we cannot save on Shabbos.
THIS IS ALL PRETTY SICKENING.
Thank you. I never knew any of this and was especially shocked by the concept that rescuing a nonbeliever was forbidden because the world is healed by ridding it of an idolater.
This is just unspeakable, and it is telling that the persons holding this belief do not want non-Jews to know that it exists.
halacha absolutely PROHIBITS stealing from goyim. even if theyre an idolater.
Shulchan Aruch (and Tur) in Choshen Mishpat 348:2
the rambam at the beginning of the laws of stealing states it explicitly.
however this doesnt apply to finding a lost object, and one may not violate shabbos to save a life and one risks being put to death himself if he does so.
so how does this fit in (keep in mind I am a Roman Catholic married to a formerly religious woman ) – many years ago in front of k mart in Monroe I put a quarter in the ride for my daughter and let the kj kids hop on – out of the blue one of the kj kids hopped off and zoomed into the parking lot – had I not grabbed him by his collar he would have been creamed – the mother could not thank me enough, smacked and yelled at him – so as a goy what is your opinion – would the frum spies here care to opine
It is my understanding that according to Haredi Judaism – or at least according to what is taught at Neve – Ohr Sameyach’s sister – the further we move from Sinai, the more degraded we become. It follows that what we see as moral progress, they see as regress. The further back we go (to the supposed Sinai revelation) the holier we were; the greater our spiritual and moral stature.
The whole idea of Rabbis ‘coming around’ or ‘beginning to see’ goes completely against the grain of their philosophy. It is not just their way of dress that has been frozen but their entire outlook which is trenchantly opposed to change.
The absurdity of deciding how to deal with certain crimes by considering whether the Rabbis of old would sentence the accused to be put to death, stoned or simply flogged is utterly backwards. Even if the sentences were never carried out, the general paradigm is flagrantly primitive.
Thanks,Barry!In Tacitus’ book “Germania” it says that ancient Germans used to throw gay people in latrines as a form of humiliating punishment.
Now,if any German today came up with the idea of introducing this custom in today’s Germany,all the world would rightfully call for him being locked up in an asylum.
The same would happen to an Englishman who would want to burn witches just because his forefathers deemed it right.
Why is it that Jews and Muslims get away with these idiotic,primitive lunacies?
Under both Halacha and common law one is not under any LEGAL (as opposed to moral) obligation to rescue any person from death unless one has directly caused that person to be in that position. So an adult who comes upon a small child drowning in 3 feet of water is not legally obliged to rescue that child. However if someone pushes another into a pool than one is legally liable if he drowns.
The Gemara in Avodah Zarah 26b states that as regards idolaters and Jewish shepherds of small cattle (who as assumed to be thieves as they graze on other peoples land) one must stick to strict legal duty not to endanger them by your actions (either directly or indirectly) but one must not exercise the non-legal but moral duty to rescue them from a danger you have not brought about since ridding the world of idolaters and thieves is a Tikun Olam. As regards Jewish apostates, you may indirectly endanger them (something not allowed for idolaters) as under Roman Law you are not liable for indirect consequences of your actions but only for direct consequences, eg if I throw a brick out of a window and it hits someone then I am liable but if someone later trips up over it at night, then I am not.
Now it is possible to interpret the reference to ‘idolaters’ as pagan idol worshippers of that particular era so as to argue that this harsh prohibition does not apply to Christians and Muslims (as the Rambam does) just as the harshness of the obligation to indirectly kill aspostate Jews is avoided by some rabbis assuming secular Jews to be ‘captured children’. However ultraorthodox Jews especially Hasidim mainly refuse to do so.
It is not unusual to find shockingly bigoted and unPC ideas in ancient texts and modern Jews today should not be ashamed of that any more than an adult should be ashamed of once having been a child with childish habits and ideas.
What is sad is that Hassidim and Gedolim by refusing to deviate in any way from primitive ideas have morally speaking stifled their development so as still to remain in diapers and they see nothing wrong and are indeed proud of that embarrassing fact.
As I noted above: The normative halakhic position on saving life is, unfortunately, what was posted in Yiddish above.
We generally don’t follow it because if we don’t save them, they won’t save us and might in fact kill us. This is openly stated in rabbinic literature.
If you both were not ignoramuses and rank apologists, you would have known that.
Scott doing again what he does best.Blood libels.
Are you not ashamed to write this baseless tripe?
Don’t you even know a simple passage in the Bible,Leviticus chapter 35, that one must support the non Jewish inhabitants amongst you?
Nachmanadies clearly states that one of the commandments is to save such a persons life and heal him if he is sick
Further to my comment above, not only would the frumma expect the goyim to save them, they would expect them to do so even at the risk of their own (goyim’s) life. And then more than likely not thank them for doing so.
This further proves that the frumma are without moral foundation or common sense. If the Shulcan Aruch told them to chop the right arm off their newborns, 99.9% of them would do it. Of course, the frumma would expect the goyim to save them, even if the converse is not true (else they would be antisemites). It should be like organ donation should be – if you are not prepared to do it you should not be eligible to receive.
‘Is this true? If it’s not, the people reading should have torn him a new one. If it is, the antisemites are right, and the Jewish religion deserves to be obliterated’
Well that way of thinking is nearly as crude as the torah. Anti-semites hate all Jews, but only a portion of Jews are so morally regressed that they believe in their own racial superiority! Yes, those who believe God said all this on top of a mountain, or through the mouths of medieval ‘sages’ tend to be somewhat arrested…
menashe hakatan is ruling against the beer hagolah? is he writing that lo signov doesnt apply to goyim, which even the yam shel shlomo applies midrabannan at least? cant be he was that ignorant.
“BS–you cant steal from a non-jew, either. Where are these people coming from? Are they completely ignorant?
Posted by: Yonah Lazar | August 30, 2013 at 01:54 PM”
No. Actually, the normative halakhic position on saving life is, unfortunately, what was posted in Yiddish above.
We generally don’t follow it because if we don’t save them, they won’t save us and might in fact kill us. This is openly stated in rabbinic literature.
As for stealing, Menashe Hakutan ruled that you can steal from the government (and I think from “goyyim” as well) as long as you don’t get caught.
so you CAN even violate sabbath to save a non-jew.
Posted by: Yonah Lazar | August 30, 2013 at 02:32 PM
YES but NOT because it is the right thing to do, to save another humane life. No, that is not the reason, it is because if found out some harm might happen to Jews. If one knows it can never be found out then let him die.
Is this true? If it’s not, the people reading should have torn him a new one. If it is, the antisemites are right, and the Jewish religion deserves to be obliterated
I’m pretty sure what he just said falls along the lines of a chilul Hashem.
Anti-Semitism, while often reprehensible, can sometimes be understandable thanks to vile cretins like this guy, or those Breslovers desecrating the Jesus statue/insisting it be removed in Ukraine. It doesn’t justify anti-Semitism, but it explains some of it
Failed messiah was established and run in 2004 by Mr. Shmarya (Scott)Rosenberg. The site was acquired by Diversified Holdings, Feb 2016.
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Jerusalem Post Confirms Israel Knew USS Liberty Was American And Still Attacked It in 1967 by RALPH LOPEZ, http://www.digitaljournal.com/ A 2004 transcript of an Israeli military tape published in the Jerusalem Post supports the unanimous position of the survivors and many high-ranking US officers that Israeli forces knew the USS Liberty was an American ship, as they attempted to sink it. – The Liberty was the only ship of its kind at the time, easily distinguishable for the huge satellite dishes mounted on its deck and the bristling array of antennae which served as the spy ship’s “ears.” – The survivors, and the audio tape on which the transcript is based, are presented in a new documentary which was broadcast on the Al Jazeera America channel last week. The audio tape has never been heard before by an American audience. The film “The Day Israel Attacked America” is directed…
The author starts by listing the view which the Kabbalah presents on the nature of the Gentile soul versus the nature of the Jewish soul.
He finds it problematic that the difference between the Jewish soul and a Gentile soul is bigger than the difference between a soul of a human and a soul of an animal.
The soul of the Jew is godly, but the soul of the Gentile is from the three satanic spheres with no redeaming qualities whatsoever.
Judasim basically states that only the Jew is a human, that the Gentiles is a beast among other beasts.
The conclusion drawn is obviously that Jewish life has infinitely higher value than a Non-Jewish life. this follow logically from the fact that the Jewish soul is godly, but a Non-Jewish soul is like the soul of a beast.
He tries to save Judaism contending the idea that the Rambam, (Maimonides) who often is referred to as Judaism’s greates philosopher, is representing a non-racist non-supremacist view of the nature of the Gentile soul, and to accomplish this he uses the obfuscated version of
Maimonides “Guide to the perplexed”, which the Jewish humanist Professor Israel Shahak is mentioning in his book “Jewish history Jewish religion the weight of 3000 years” Jewish history jewish religion Israel Shahak Chapter 2, Subsection “The Deception continues”, page 23 in the pdf
The text is pasted at the end of this blogpost.
Professor Israel Shahak thoroughly destroys the alleged humanism of “Judaism’s greatest philosopher” of who the Jews in Israel are devoting medical centers in his name, since the Rambam was a physician.
Here is a poets reading of a compilation of articles from chapter 5 of “Jewish history jewish religion” as well as “Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel” https://archive.org/stream/JewishFundamentalismInIsrael/JFI#page/n43/mode/2up
If this clip is taken down, search for “Israel Shahak the laws against Non-Jews”
The Jewish humanist Rabbi Jehiel Jacob Weinberg also destroys the the alleged humanism within Judaism, and within the teachings of Maimonides (the Ramabam) here:
Page 112 “The spiritual state in all circles brings sadness and hopelessness. I have bitter thoughts about the very existence of the nation and its hopes for the future. The entire world hates us. We assume that this hatred is due to the wickedness of the nations, and so no one stops to think that perhaps we also bear some guilt. We regard all the nations as similiar to an ass. It is forbidden to save a Gentile, it is forbidden to offer him free medical treatment, it is forbidden to violate the Sabbath to save his life, his sexual intercourse does not render a woman forbidden to her husband according to R. Tam, because their issue is like the issue of horses. Can the nations resign themselves to such a deprivation of rights? It is permitted to deceive a Gentile and cancel his debt as well as forbidden to return his lost object! What can we do? Can we uproot our Torah teaching with apologetic formulae or clever deceptions.
God knows that I have written this with the blood of my heart, the blood of my soul”
Page 118
“In my opinion it is fitting to put an end to the hatred of religions for each other. More than Christianity hates Judaism, Judaism hates Christianity. There is a dispute if stealing from Gentiles is forbidden from the Torah, everyone holds that deceiving a Gentile and cancelling his debt is permitted, one is not to return a lost object to a Gentile, according to R. Tam intercourse with a Gentile does not render a woman forbidden to her husband, their issue is like the issue [of horses]. According to Maimonides, if a Jew has sex with a Gentile [woman], the Gentile is killed because the Jew stumbeled into sin through her. The law of the Gentile is the same as that of an animal. Maimonides derived this law on his own. It is not found in the Bavli or Yerushalmi.
We must solemnly and formally declare that in our day this does not apply. Meiri wrote as such, but the teachers and ramim whisper in the ears of students that all this was written because of the censor”
Rabbi Hanan Balk lecture regarding the saving of gentiles from death can be found at the yutorah.org site, there he concludes that the great Maimonides does not allow it.
The only rabbi who unfourtunately does not count is the medieval rabbi Meiri who rabbi Weinberg refers to. Wikipedia refers to him as an insignificant rabbi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Meiri
The Deception Continues Modern scholars of Judaism have not only continued the deception, but have actually improved upon the old rabbinical methods, both in impudence and in mendacity. I omit here the various histories of antisemitism, as unworthy of serious consideration, and shall give just three particular examples and one general example of the more modern “scholarly” deceptions. In 1962, a part of the Maimonidean Code referred to above, the so-called Book of Knowledge, which contains the most basic rules of Jewish faith and practice, was published in Jerusalem in a bilingual edition, with the English translation facing the Hebrew text.20 The latter has been restored to its original purity, and the command to exterminate Jewish infidels appears in it in full: “It is a duty to exterminate them with one’s own hands.” In the English translation this is somewhat softened to: “It is a duty to take active measures to destroy them.” But then the Hebrew text goes on to specify the prime examples of “infidels” who must be exterminated: “such as Jesus of Nazareth and his pupils, and Tzadoq and Baitos21 and their pupils, may the name of the wicked rot.” Not one word of this appears in the English text on the facing page (78a). And, even more significant, in spite of the wide circulation of this book among scholars in the Englishspeaking countries, not one of them has, as far as I know, protested against this glaring deception. The second example comes from the USA, again from an English translation of a book by Maimonides. Apart from his work on the codification of the Talmud, he was also a philosopher and his Guide to the Perplexed is justly considered to be the greatest work of Jewish religious philosophy and is widely read and used even today. Unfortunately, in addition to his attitude towards non-Jews generally and Christians in particular, Maimonides was also an anti-Black racist. Towards the end of the Guide, in a crucial chapter (book III, chapter 51) he discusses how various sections of humanity can attain the supreme religious value, the true worship of God. Among those who are incapable of even approaching this are:
“Some of the Turks [i.e., the Mongol race] and the nomads in the North, and the Blacks and the nomads in the South, and those who resemble them in our climates. And their nature is like the nature of mute animals, and according to my opinion they are not on the level of human beings, and their level among existing things is below that of a man and above that of a monkey, because they have the image and the resemblance of a man more than a monkey does.”
Now, what does one do with such a passage in a most important and necessary work of Judaism? Face the truth and its consequences? God forbid! Admit (as so many Christian scholars, for example, have done in similar circumstances) that a very important Jewish authority held also rabid anti-Black views, and by this admission make an attempt at selfeducation in real humanity? Perish the thought. I can almost imagine Jewish scholars in the USA consulting among themselves, “What is to be done?”—for the book had to be translated, due to the decline in the knowledge of Hebrew among American Jews. Whether by consultation or by individual inspiration, a happy “solution” was found: in the popular American translation of the Guide by one Friedlander, first published as far back as 1925 and since then reprinted in many editions, including several in paperback, the Hebrew word Kushim, which means Blacks, was simply transliterated and appears as “Kushites,” a word which means nothing to those who have no knowledge of Hebrew, or to whom an obliging rabbi will not give an oral explanation.22 During all these years, not a word has been said to point out the initial deception or the social facts underlying its continuation—and this throughout the excitement of Martin Luther King’s campaigns, which were supported by so many rabbis, not to mention other Jewish figures, some of whom must have been aware of the anti-Black racist attitude which forms part of their Jewish heritage.23
The author Hanan Balk goes on as he praises Maimonides, in mixing in statements by the humanist medieval rabbi Meiri, who is considered as an unimportant rabbi because he ruled that all the hateful rulings against the Gentiles no longer apply. His rulings are unfourtunately not taken into account when deciding Halakaha.
The humanist rabbi Jehiel Jacob Weinberg reveal the following about “Judaism’s greatest philosopher”/ “the Eagle”:
“According to Maimonides, if a Jew has sex with a Gentile [woman], the Gentile is killed because the Jew stumbeled into sin through her. The law of the Gentile is the same as that of an animal. Maimonides derived this law on his own. It is not found in the Bavli or Yerushalmi. We must solemnly and formally declare that in our daythis does not apply. Meiri wrote as such, but the teachers and ramim whisper in the ears of students that all this was written because of the censor”
“The spiritual state in all circles brings sadness and hopelessness. I have bitter thoughts about the very existence of the nation and its hopes for the future. The entire world hates us. We assume that this hatred is due to the wickedness of the nations, and so no one stops to think that perhaps we also bear some guilt. We regard all the nations as similiar to an ass. It is forbidden to save a Gentile, it is forbidden to offer him free medical treatment, it is forbidden to violate the Sabbath to save his life, his sexual intercourse does not render a woman forbidden to her husband according to R. Tam, because their issue is like the issue of horses. Can the nations resign themselves to such a deprivation of rights? It is permitted to deceive a Gentile and cancel his debt as well as forbidden to return his lost object! What can we do? Can we uproot our Torah teaching with apologetic formulae or clever deceptions. God knows that I have written this with the blood of my heart, the blood of my soul”
Page 118 “In my opinion it is fitting to put an end to the hatred of religions for each other. More than Christianity hates Judaism, Judaism hates Christianity. There is a dispute if stealing from Gentiles is forbidden from the Torah, everyone holds that deceiving a Gentile and cancelling his debt is permitted, one is not to return a lost object to a Gentile, according to R. Tam intercourse with a Gentile does not render a woman forbidden to her husband, their issue is like the issue [of horses].
According to Maimonides, if a Jew has sex with a Gentile [woman], the Gentile is killed because the Jew stumbeled into sin through her. The law of the Gentile is the same as that of an animal. Maimonides derived this law on his own.It is not found in the Bavli or Yerushalmi. We must solemnly and formally declare that in our daythis does not apply. Meiri wrote as such, but the teachers and ramim whisper in the ears of students that all this was written because of the censor“
Hanan Balk does not stop there in his lying about the criminality of Judaism, but he also goes on with trying to pull off the standard deception that a “Gentile who studies the Torah is like a High Priest” – They always omit the whole verse which says that this refers to their Noahide laws, but that a Gentile who studies the whole Torah deserves death!
Page 20 in the text by Balk A statement in the Talmud supports Maimonides: “R. Meir used to say: ‘How do we know that even a non-Jew who occupies himself with Torah is comparable to the High Priest?
The full quote from Sanhedrin 59 however is R. Johanan said: A heathen who studies the Torah deserves death, for it is written, Moses commanded us a law for an inheritance;2 it is ourinheritance, not theirs.3 Then why is this not included in the Noachian laws? — On the reading morasha [an inheritance] he steals it; on the reading me’orasah [betrothed], he is guilty as one who violates a betrothed maiden, who is stoned.4 An objection is raised: R. Meir used to say. Whence do we know that even a heathen who studies the Torah is as a High Priest? From the verse, [Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments:] which, if man do, he shall live in them.5 Priests, Levites, and Israelites are not mentioned, but men: hence thou mayest learn that even a heathen who studies6 the Torah is as a High Priest! — That refers to their own seven laws.7
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_59.html https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20161108183052/http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_59.html
Enligt f.d. juden Israel Shamir, bosatt i Sverige, så köper Judenheten
upp medierna över hela världen och att syftet inte är att tjäna pengar, utan
att kontrollera verklighetsbeskrivningen. Shamir nås via Skype. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Shamir#Views
Inflytandet över journalistiken
sträcker sig utöver det egna faktiska ägandet, därför att
journalistkåren inte vill bränna broarna till de judiskt ägda
medierna, man biter inte handen som föder en, eller som potentiellt
kan komma att föda en. Jobben är för få.
Man behöver inte tala om för en smart journalist vad som kan skrivas
eller inte skrivas, detta gissar man sig till själv, i ren självbevarelsedrift.
Man tittar noga på hur viden blåser, vilka som blir befodrade, och vilka
som skuffas undan. Man behöver således bara äga medierna för att kontrollera verklighetsbeskrivningen, att direkt diktera nyheter behövs inte. För säkerhets skull kan man dock ha en slick ansvarig utgivare såsom Woldarski, eller en Olle Wästberg ifrån den egna “klanen”.
Svensken som läser medierna får veta en massa om de stackars ensamkommande männen som lämnar kvar kvinnor och barn för att fly kriget där “hundratusentals har dödats”, (enligt en enmans-orkester i CoventryEngland https://www.rt.com/news/317372-nimrod-kamer-syrian-observatory/
)som vi “måste ta emot”, vet således inget om att Palestinska obeväpnade barn och kvinnor skjuts till döds nästan varje vecka år ut och år in http://pchrgaza.org/en/?cat=43
av media magnaternas älsklingsobjekt, och att deras soldat-mördare frias i domstolar:
En gråtande 13-årig flicka, Iman Darweesh Al-Hams, som irrat sig in i den omarkerade buffertzonen, försökte gömma sig för soldaterna, sprejades med kulor och mördaren friades i Israelisk domstol, trotsatt inspelad radiokommunikation visade att soldaterna visste att hon grät och var panikslagen. Flickan förstod att soldaterna skulle mörda henne. Hon dödades därför att hon var icke-jude. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel
Att Sverige ännu inte påfört Apartheid Israel sanktioner är ett brott emot mänskligheten somSverige begår.
Elor Azarian fick 18 månader för att ha avrättat en Palestinsk motståndsman, som blivit skjuten och låg oskadliggjord på marken med armarna vitt utspända som i ett krucifix.
Problemet var här att detta videofilmades av en Palestinier och visades över hela världen, annars hade han blivit friad.
Försvaret menade att det skulle vara diskriminering mot Azarian( arabisk jude, ej europée) att fälla honom,( underförstått -för ingen annan fälls för mord på Palestinier).
Han gick lugnt fram till honom, utan att vara rädd för att Palestiniern skulle ha sprängmedel på sig, som försvaret sedan hävdade, och sköt honom i huvudet på nära avstånd.
“Confirming the kill” kallar dom det. Premiärminister Netnayahu är en av de många poiltiker som säger att han borde frias.
Judisk humanister visselblåsare på professorsnivå avslöjar att Judendom är
kriminell och en konspiration mot mänskligheten, men detta faktum vill den organiserade
Judenheten inte visselblåsa och ta avstånd från.
-Barmhärtighetshandlingar riktade emot icke-juden är förbjudna.
Judiske humanisten dokumentärfilmaren Menachem Daum: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://lookstein.org/lookjed/read.php?1,5081,5140#msg-514
“Recently I asked two major poskim whether it is permitted to
send an unsolicited donation toward tsunami relief.
In the case I posed to them, the recipients would not know a
Jew was sending the donation.
There would be no Kiddush HaShem if it were sent nor would
there be a Chilul HaShem if it were withheld. Both eminent authorities ruled that in such a case it was clearly a violation of the negative prohibition of “Lo Sichonaym”, we are not permitted to do a gratuitous act of kindness for a non-Jew.”
– Det är förbjudet bryta Sabbaten för att rädda en icke-jude från döden, om det inte är ett PR-trick, enligt judiske humanisten Harvard professorn Noah Feldman
” If you intended to save the patient’s life so as to facilitate good relations between Jews and non-Jews, your actions were permissible. But if,
to the contrary, you intended to save the patient out
of universal morality, then you were in fact guilty of
violating the Sabbath,”
-Det är religiöst sanktionerat att bedra icke-juden.
Professor Feldman skriver längre ner:
“Later, in class, the teacher apologized to us students for what he said to the doctor.
His comments, he said, were inappropriate — not because they were wrongheaded,
but because non-Jews were present in the audience when he made them.
The double standard of Jews and non-Jews, in other words, was for him truly irreducible: it was not just about noting that only Jewish lives merited violation of the Sabbath, but also about keeping the secret of why non-Jewish lives might be saved. ”
Den judiske humanisten Rabbi Jehiel Jacob Weinberg bekräftar den dödliga konspirationen mot mänskligheten, lögnerna och bedrägeriet:
Page 112
“The spiritual state in all circles brings sadness and hopelessness.
I have bitter thoughts about the very existence of the nation and its hopes for the future. The entire world hates us. We assume that this hatred is due to the wickedness of the nations, and so no one stops to think that perhaps we also bear some guilt. We regard all the nations as similar to an ass. It is forbidden to save a Gentile, it is forbidden to offer him free medical treatment, it is forbidden to violate the Sabbath to save his life,
his sexual intercourse
does not render a woman forbidden to her husband according to R. Tam, because their issue is like the issue of horses.
Can the nations resign themselves to such a deprivation of rights? It is permitted to deceive a Gentile and cancel his debt as well as forbidden to return his lost object!
What can we do? Can we uproot our Torah teaching with apologetic formulae
or clever deceptions. God knows that I have written this with the blood of my heart, the blood of my soul”
Page 118
“In my opinion it is fitting to put an end to the hatred of religions for each other.
More than Christianity hates Judaism, Judaism hates Christianity. There is a dispute if stealing from Gentiles is forbidden from the Torah, everyone holds that deceiving a Gentile and cancelling his debt is permitted, one is not to return a lost object to a Gentile,
according to R. Tam intercourse with a Gentile does not render a woman forbidden to her husband,
their issue is like the issue [of horses]. According to Maimonides, if a Jew has sex with a Gentile [woman], the Gentile is killed because the Jew stumbled into sin through her. The law of the Gentile is the same as that of an animal. Maimonides derived this law on his own.
It is not found in the Bavli or Yerushalmi. We must solemnly and formally declare that in our day
this does not apply. Meiri wrote as such, but the teachers and ramim whisper in the ears of students that all this was written because of the censor”
Rabbi David Bar Chaim som är alum från elite Yeshivan (Talmud skola) Merkatz Ha Rav, varifrån eliten rekryteras till höga
befattningar inom militären etc. förklarar Halakaha avseende att judar inte ska rädda en icke-jude från döden på vardagar, vid 25:00 och vid 1:16:00
Han tar ett exempel där en icke-jude drunknar, och säger att man naturligtvis inte ska berätta (undeförstått för polisen)
att man är en “master swimmer”på frågan varför icke-juden drunknat.
Att man inte kan bryta Sabbatten för att rädda en icke-jude från döden är tydligt föreskriven i Halakhah, säger han, och att när Israel är mäktigt
kommer Israel att våga tillämpa Halakhah fullt ut, och då kommer det vara belagt med dödsstraff för judar att bryta sabbaten
för att rädda en icke-jude.
Israeliske journalisten Yossi Gurwitz berättar om konceptet “when Israel is mighty”, då behöver man inte förställa sig
och agera enligt “Mpnei Darkei Shalom”, utan då visar man sitt rätta ansikte eftersom man inte längre fruktar repressalier. Han bekräftar också att det finns inget straff i en Talmudisk domstol för en jude om han mördar en icke-jude. Det är inte tillåtet, men straffet kan bara komma från Gud.
Istället för att visselblåsa Judendomen, så ljuger alltså och bedrar de judiskt ägda medierna om Judendomen.
Man talar om “antisemitism” och framställer sig själva som oskyldiga offer.
“Antisemitism” skall tydligen vara en slags rasism, trots att Judenheten är multietnisk, det finns svarta judar, vita judar,
asiatiska judar etc. man menar att man är en etnisk grupp baserade på det gemensamma “judiska blodet” från mödernet.
Hur ska man uppnå sin utopi, världsregering från Jerusalem med Messias?
Så här gör dom för att åstadkomma en judisk världsordning:
1. Skapa acceptans för massinvandring för att blanda upp de etniska grupperna och på så sätt upplösa nationalstaterna
-De Judiskt ägda medierna som talar sig varma för fri invandring, beättar inte att det är belagt med fängelsestraff i Israel att kontaminera det “judiska blodet”, att gifta sig med en icke-jude. Inget som svensken behöver veta. http://newobserveronline.com/israel-prison-marriage-non-jews
-Judinnan Barbara Spectre lämnade Israel för att komma till Sverige och “hjälpa” Sverige bli mer multikulturellt, berättar
att judarna leder detta arbete och kommer att bli hatade för detta.
Israel skickar sina Afrikanska flyktingar till Sverige http://american3rdposition.com/?p=11847
Syften med flyktingströmmarna är att generera sympati för Israel “Nu vet ni hur vi har det, vi lider med er för de otäcka muslimerna som kommer till Europa”. Vi ska hata “muslimerna”, inte upptäcka att judarna är de som transporterar in “muslimerna”.
3. Skapa flyktingströmmarna
-Israel och
Dönmhe kryptojudarna huset Saud (se freudiansk felsägning av kungen)
-Judiskt ägda media hetsar emot Ryssland, och påstår att Ryssland invanderade Krim, trots att man innan Maidan, i Ukrainas parlament meddelade farhågor om att USA iscensätter ett inbördeskrig. Videoklipp från paralamentet: https://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2015/01/29/nov-2013-pre-maidan-ukraine-deputy-has-proof-of-usa-staging-civil-war-in-ukraine/
Judinnan Victoria Nulands (gift med en av arkitekterna bakom 911 och Irak-kriget, Robert Kagan) telefon hackas av Guccifer, där hon dikterar vilken jude som ska få sitta på vilken plats i den Ukrainska kuppregeringen.
Att den övervägande ryska befolkningen på Krim, röstade om att få uppgå i Ryssland i April 2012, är något som judemedierna bekvämt utelämnar.
Man vill att Sverige ska gå med i NATO, och krossa Ryssland, Iran och Kina dvs. krossa den multipolär världsordningen av suveräna stater. Med total makt över USA kongressen och med judiska marionetter i Canada, Australien och EU, vill man för världen inkrementellt in i en världsregering.
För att åstadkomma världsregeringen vill de neokonservativa ockås ha kärnvapenkrig emot Ryssland och Kina, enligt skaparen av Reagans ekonomiska doktrin Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, springer dessa som Reagan, han själv, m.fl. refererade till som
“crazies” nu omkring i Washington och gnäller
“Vad är det för nytta med att ha kärnvapen, om man aldrig använder dem?” http://www.truthandaction.org/reganomics-creator-us-plans-nuclear-first-strike-russia-china/
5. Tysta kritik emot den Judiska makten genom att utmåla sig själva som världshistoriens oskyldigaste super offer nr.1
6. Arbeta för utraderandet av kristna traditioner och symboler och införande av Judendom “lite” för icke-judar -Noahid lagarna
Kristendomen ses som avgudadyrkan och straffas med döden i en Beith Dinh (Talmudisk domstol) till skillnad mot Islam som anses uppfylla Noahid lagarna.
-Merry Xmas http://www.noahide.com/infiltration/xmas2.htm
Införande av Noahid communities http://www.noahide.com/finalwar.htm
Läs sista stycket “…to bring the Moshiach immediately”
“Judaism has always been aconquering religion, not for the purpose of converting gentiles to become Jews, but rather with the mission of returning the world to the universal covenant between G-d and Noah…..”
Efterord
JFK talade om en jättekonspiration emot mänskligheten, denna förseglade hans öde tillika med det faktum att han utfärdade Exekutiv order 11110 som kringgick judiska privat ägda Fedreal Reserve.
Den organiserade Judenehten har föklarat krig emot Sverige och resten av mänskligheten, där avslöjarna är humanistiska judar visselblåsare på professorsnivå.
Den organiserad judenhetens handlingar påvisar en koordinerad attack på flera plan.
Hitler försökte flytta Europas judar till Sydamerika, och hade han lyckats så skulle vi levt i en lycklig utopi idag. Minns honom! Låt inte Judenheten demonisera honom, och utmåla sig själva som offer!
Shas’ leader says religious physicians cannot violate Sabbath in order to save gentiles’ lives, but offers halachic solution to avoid legal repercussions
Connecting true geography and detailed unfolding of wide variety of crimes perpetrated by German/Ukrainian Nazis and communist Soviet Union on the Polish nation.
“According to Halacha (Jewish law), we are not allowed to save a goy (non-Jew) from death. For example, if one sees a goy drowning in a river and he cries to the Jew that he should rescue him by throwing the safety ring, if no other goy will ever know that this cry was ignored and no danger will emerge from it to Jews, the Jew is not allowed to throw the safety ring according to the Halacha”
Posted by: Gollum | September 02, 2013 at 05:42 PM
He’s an advocate for a cult grounded in superstition and obscurantist thinking. Debating via logic and science is pointless.
Worthless piece of gutter trash – typical of the filth Chabad has been taking in over the past three decades. Fortunately, you and your fellow psychopaths will be the destruction of your obscene, idolatrous cult.
The Vilna Gaon knew how to deal with your kind. I’m only sorry he was prevented from finishing the job.
On the contrary, self-preservation is a law of nature. Every conscious being regards it as such. Those principles that lead us to care for others (not just ones family, or exclusively ones own tribe), only such principles can be considered ‘holy’.
Gollum
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
Our life comes first is a holy principle.
Menachem, on your view the following statement reflects an admirable and holy sentiment:
‘As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.’
The rest of us here find this kind of thing cynical, and in the context of a spiritual tradition, truly perverse. That is the difference between you and your opponents. Your opponents look at the content of the tradition and know, by the light inside them, that this way of thinking is base, revolting and to be condemned.
All sorts of chicanery and false philosophy has been used on you to convince you that you have no internal light and that you are entirely dependent on these texts for any sense of morality. I assume that is why you feel the need to defend a doctrine which cannot be defended on the grounds of decency, let alone holiness.
Chicago Sam,
It all boil down to a holy life vs an unholy one. Without the observance of Torah and mitvos one has a “bestial,(“animalistic”) existence hence the severe condemnation in the passage you cited of those who choose not to– how much moreso gentiles who don’t keep the sheva mitzvos.
Btw, Jeff
Since you made an oblique reference to eating the BLT bedafka on Thursday, Rosh Hashana, as if it would be merely an innocuous act, Here is what my Rav once told us:
“There was once a–yet-to-be observant Jew who offered an observation to me to the contrary of what I had been teaching him for many years re the misfortune of eating voluntarily on Yom Kippur:
Rabbi didn’t you teach us many years ago that it is an issur korais to eat on Yom Kippur?
Well not only did I eat on that day, but I regularly devour on Yom Kipur a ham sandwich! And, look I am still alive!’
So what did I reply, ‘You say that you are still alive…,but I say,according to the reality of the Torah, you are really dead!
A word to the wise…
Haredim’s view of Gentiles is not much different from their attitude toward non-Orthodox Jews, which they predicate upon the interpretation:
אנציקלופדיה תלמודית כרך א, אהבת ישראל [טור ריא]
Examples of this can be found in the Gemorah in Pesachim 49b:
אכן אין מצות ואהבת לרעך אלא על אחיך בתורה ומצוות, שרעך נקרא רעך בתורה ובמצוות, או ש”כמוך” פירושו כמוך במצוות.
וכך יש לנהוג בעם נארץ, על פי הגמרא במסכת פסחים מ”ט ע”ב:
תנו רבנן: לעולם ימכור אדם כל מה שיש לו וישא בת תלמיד חכם. לא מצא בת תלמיד חכם – ישא בת גדולי הדור. לא מצא בת גדולי הדור – ישא בת ראשי כנסיות, לא מצא בת ראשי כנסיות – ישא בת גבאי צדקה. לא מצא בת גבאי צדקה – ישא בת מלמדי תינוקות. ולא ישא בת עמי הארץ, מפני שהן שקץ, ונשותיהן שרץ, ועל בנותיהן הוא אומר (דברים כ”ז) ארור שוכב עם כל בהמה.
תניא, רבי אומר: עם הארץ אסור לאכול בשר שנאמר (ויקרא י”א) זאת תורת הבהמה והעוף, כל העוסק בתורה – מותר לאכול בשר בהמה ועוף, וכל שאינו עוסק בתורה – אסור לאכול בשר בהמה ועוף. אמר רבי אלעזר: עם הארץ מותר לנוחרו ביום הכיפורים שחל להיות בשבת. אמרו לו תלמידיו: רבי, אמור לשוחטו! – אמר להן: זה – טעון ברכה, וזה – אינו טעון ברכה. אמר רבי אלעזר: עם הארץ אסור להתלוות עמו בדרך, שנאמר (דברים ל’) כי הוא חייך ואורך ימיך, על חייו לא חס – על חיי חבירו לא כל שכן. אמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני אמר רבי יוחנן: עם הארץ מותר לקורעו כדג. אמר רבי שמואל בר יצחק: ומגבו. תניא, אמר רבי עקיבא: כשהייתי עם הארץ אמרתי: מי יתן לי תלמיד חכם ואנשכנו כחמור. אמרו לו תלמידיו: רבי, אמור ככלב! – אמר להן: זה – נושך ושובר עצם, וזה – נושך ואינו שובר עצם. תניא, היה רבי מאיר אומר: כל המשיא בתו לעם הארץ – כאילו כופתה ומניחה לפני ארי. מה ארי דורס ואוכל ואין לו בושת פנים – אף עם הארץ מכה ובועל ואין לו בושת פנים. תניא, רבי אליעזר אומר: אילמלא אנו צריכים להם למשא ומתן – היו הורגין אותנו. תנא רבי חייא: כל העוסק בתורה לפני עם הארץ – כאילו בועל ארוסתו בפניו, שנאמר (דברים ל”ג) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה, אל תקרי מורשה אלא מאורסה. גדולה שנאה ששונאין עמי הארץ לתלמיד חכם, יותר משנאה ששונאין אומות העולם את ישראל, ונשותיהן יותר מהן. תנא: שנה ופירש – יותר מכולן. תנו רבנן: ששה דברים נאמרו בעמי הארץ: אין מוסרין להן עדות, ואין מקבלין ממנו עדות, ואין מגלין להן סוד, ואין ממנין אותן אפוטרופוס על היתומים, ואין ממנין אותן אפוטרופוס על קופה של צדקה, ואין מתלוין עמהן בדרך. ויש אומרים: אף אין מכריזין על אבידתו. – ותנא קמא: זמנין דנפיק מיניה זרעא מעליא ואכיל ליה, שנאמר (איוב כ”ז) יכין וצדיק ילבש.
Our Rabbis taught: Let a man always sell all he has and marry the daughter of a scholar. If he does not find1 the daughter of a scholar, let him marry the daughter of [one of] the great men of the generation.2 If he does not find the daughter of [one of] the great men of the generation, let him marry the daughter of the head of synagogues. If he does not find the daughter of the head of synagogues,3 let him marry the daughter of a charity treasurer. If he does not find the daughter of a charity treasurer, let him marry the daughter of an elementary school-teacher, but let him not marry the daughter of an ‘am ha-arez, because they are detestable and their wives are vermin, and of their daughters it is said, Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast.4
It was taught, Rabbi said: An ‘am ha-arez may not eat the flesh of cattle, for it is said, This is the law [Torah] of the beast, and of the fowl;5 whoever engages in [the study of] the Torah may eat the flesh of beast and fowl, but he who does not engage in [the study of] the Torah may not eat the flesh of beast and fowl.
R. Eleazar said: An ‘am ha-arez, it is permitted to stab him [even] on the Day of Atonement which falls on the Sabbath. Said his disciples to him, Master, say to slaughter him [ritually]? He replied: This [ritual slaughter] requires a benediction, whereas that [stabbing] does not require a benediction. R. Eleazar said: One must not join company with an ‘am ha-arez on the road, because it is said, for that [the Torah] is thy life, and the length of thy days:6 [seeing that] he has no care [pity] for his own life,7 how much the more for the life of his companions! R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in R. Johanan’s name: One may tear an ‘am haarez like a fish! Said R. Samuel b. Isaac: And [this means] along his back.
It was taught, R. Akiba said: When I was an ‘am ha-arez8 I said: I would that I had a scholar [before me], and I would maul him like an ass. Said his disciples to him, Rabbi, say like a dog! The former bites and breaks the bones, while the latter bites but does not break the bones, he answered them.
It was taught, R. Meir used to say: Whoever marries his daughter to an ‘am ha-arez, is as though he bound and laid her before a lion: just as a lion tears [his prey] and devours it and has no shame, so an ‘am ha-arez strikes and cohabits and has no shame.
It was taught, R. Eliezer said: But that we are necessary to them for trade, they would kill us. R. Hiyya taught: Whoever studies9 the Torah in front of an ‘am ha-arez, is as though he cohabited with his betrothed in his presence,10 for it is said, Moses commanded us a law, an inheritance [morashah] of the congregation of Jacob:11 read not morashah but me’orasah [the betrothed].12 Greater is the hatred wherewith the ‘amme ha-arez, hate the scholar than the hatred wherewith the heathens hate Israel, and their wives [hate even] more than they. It was taught: He who has studied and then abandoned [the Torah] [hates the scholar] more than all of them.13 Our Rabbis taught: Six things were said of the ‘amme ha-arez’: We do not commit testimony to them; we do not accept testimony from them; we do not reveal a secret to them; we do not appoint them as guardians for orphans; we do not appoint them stewards14 over charity funds; and we must not join their company on the road. Some say, We do not proclaim their losses too.15 And the first Tanna?16 — Virtuous seed may sometimes issue from him, and they will enjoy17 it, as it is said, He will prepare it, and the just shall put it on.18
[Soncino trans.]
The point of this discussion is clear: Once we demonize our fellow non-Orthodox Jews, it is a small step before we demonize or marginalize the Gentile, as seen in the Haredi/Hassidic view mentioned above.
Posted by: Menachem | September 02, 2013 at 10:55 AM
You’re lying again. It was CHABAD that perpetrated most
Of the abuse , CHABAD that protected the molesters , CHABAD. That persecutes the victim families. It’s typical of your deceit and obfuscation that you equate Chabad with Jews (usually secular) who contribute so much to the world.
“Yes, that Melbourne community–which would have been much worse off without the overall influence Lubavitch had on the denizens there in toto. The same could be said about the world at large without the Jews!”
Only a vile, irredeemable piece of filth such as yourself could make a statement such as this.
The world might have been worse off without the Jews, but it would be infinitely better off without you. I hope this festers upon your soul like an open wound as you pray to be forgiven for your sins in the coming days.
Yes, that Melbourne community–which would have been much worse off without the overall influence Lubavitch had on the denizens there in toto. The same could be said about the world at large without the Jews!
Posted by: Menachem | September 02, 2013 at 10:07 AM
The same Melbourne community that enabled molesters, covers up molestation, persecuted victims of molestation and persecuted the families and advocates for victims.
Yes… I’m afraid all I read was “Blah, blah, blah, “Yechiiiiii!”, blah, blah.
Menachem, I’ll be thinking of you on Thursday as I eat my BLT while cursing your dead con man.
Jeff, do you know what the difference is between
a salesman and a con man? The con man truly believes in his product or service.
This is an example of salesmanship:
The worldwide list compiled by Lunavitch of Sukkahs began in 1994, as a local service to the Jewish community in Melbourne, Australia. In the first year there were only nine Sukkahs on the list as it was organized only a few days before Sukkos. Last year there were 442 Sukkahs listed, located in 27 countries.
This is an example of con manship:
Whoever sold you the blt and convinced you as a Jew that it won’t hurt you, but will be good for you. The latter is the one you should curse– but only after you cut off you nose to spite your face as is your wont.
Menachem, I’ll be thinking of you on Thursday as I eat my BLT while cursing your dead con man.
Jeff, do you know the difference between a
Posted by: Jeff | September 02, 2013 at 06:03
When Mendel is allowed to post, it confirms the twisted agenda he and his cult disseminate. Their pretense of tolerance and acceptance is stripped away. We see them for what they truly are. Hopefully, that will also open the eyes of others who have been taken in by their missionary propaganda.
Shmarya, I thought you banned this raving lunatic.
Menachem, I’ll be thinking of you on Thursday as I eat my BLT while cursing your dead con man.
Menachem:
‘As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.’
It sounds like you may be in line for the Nobel Prize for Peace!
Anuran, your grandfather sounds like a wonderful man; and I’m sure there are many instances in which Torah (and religion in general) has motivated people to do great, kind and loving deeds.
Isa, the Tanya does not say gentiles are subhuman;it says they are sub-Jewish!
There are five categories of creation:
Midaber–the speaker,Humans
Animals
Vegetable
Domaim– Mineral
And the Fifth, above all of the sub-categories,
is the Jew.
Gollum, glad to see we’re on the same page here less some strong language.
The sad thing is plenty of observant Jews have used the version of halacha they followed as a reason to be kind, to save lives, to love justice.
My grandfather was as Old Country Galitzianer as you could be. Burned his toenail clippings, shomer shabbos and everything. He made his living in real estate. Sometimes a farmer died leaving an elderly widow or a large family with no way of making a living. He would quietly write off the note or forgo payment until the family was back on its feet. He said it was a mitzvah to take care of widows and orphans.
His religion gave him a lot of strange rules. But it included a good heart and allowed him to live in the real world.
That’s the difference. Charedism closes off the heart first from Gentiles, then from Jews who aren’t quite the same and finally, I suppose, from oneself. And it doesn’t make it possible to live a good life as a religious Jew in the real world. That’s what makes it something to flee.
When the mentioned Halacha was ‘written’ there were no such other people that worshiped the same G-d that we do
Of course Chabad in particular regards non-Jews as subhuman because of the Tanya
Isa, we do not worship the same G-d as they do!
They worship a shituf and as such they according to Nodeh B’Yehuda remain in the category of idoloters:
According to the Nodah Biyhudah,* the Rama agrees with the Rambam that any religion of shittuf would be forbidden to gentiles (nor did the Rama ever indicate that Christianity was shittuf rather than idolatry).Nodah Biyhudah – Mahdura Tinyasa 148
“Behold, I say that they have tied a rope to a rope and a strand to a strand; where does this ‘chacham’ get this idea that the gentiles are not commanded concerning shittuf?! And nevertheless this thing is found in the mouths of many chachamim… and I have toiled and I have not found this thing either in the Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud, and not in any of the gedolei harishonim; and if this was true, then the Rambam should have brought in Hilchos Melachim as a psak halacha that a gentile is not commanded on avoda zarah with shittuf, so why did he exempt this din? He also contests that, regarding avoda zarah, there is no difference between a Jew and a gentile, for behold, an explicit baraisa in Maseches Sanhedrin 56b states, ‘Everything that a Jewish beis din executes upon, b’nei Noah are warned concerning them’; and likewise in Hilchos Melachim 9:2… and it seems to me that the fact that it has become commonplace for people to say that b’nei Noah are not warned concerning shittuf is according to an error they made in reading Tosafos in Maseches Bechoros 2b…. In light of [Tosafos] the Rama poskaned in Orech Chairn 156…. These words have been misconstrued by many chachamim who reasoned that the intention of the Rama is that b’nei Noah are not commanded concerning serving avodah zarah in shittuf. However, this is not in fact the case. The intention of the Tosephos and the Rama is that combining the Name of Heaven with something else in an oath does not constitute the actual worship of idolatry; rather he is combining the Name of Heaven with something else, but he is not calling in the name of Elokim and he is not saying ‘you are my g-d.’ Instead, he is merely mentioning him in his oath with the Name of Heaven in a manner of honor, regarding which we find a prohibition upon Israel, as it is written ‘and in His Name shall you swear’; this is a warning to Israel not to swear except in His Name (blessed be He) and not to combine the Name of Heaven and something else, as the Rambam wrote in 11:2 of Hilchos Shevuos —and the gentiles are not warned regarding this shittuf. However, regarding the service of avoda zarah with shittuf, there is no difference between a Jew and a gentile!… The general principle that we have received is that anything for which a Jewish court administers death upon, the gentiles are also forewarned upon, as we wrote above. Afterwards I saw in the Sefer Meil Tzeddaka in sec. 22, who also makes the same distinction; however, he did not bring the proof which I have written here….”
A partial quore from Barry:
“””Now it is possible to interpret the reference to ‘idolaters’ as pagan idol worshippers of that particular era so as to argue that this harsh prohibition does not apply to Christians and Muslims (as the Rambam does)”””
I believe this is what a MO rabbi would rule. When the mentioned Halacha was ‘written’ there were no such other people that worshiped the same G-d that we do
Of course Chabad in particular regards non-Jews as subhuman because of the Tanya
Should Jews do what ever they can to save Coptic Christians ala “Never Again!”? No! That motto inextricably refers to us; not to Gentiles.
Arik Sharon said it best re Sabra and Shatilla wherein he did nothing to prevent or stop Christians from killing Muslims whom they hated because of generations of assaults:
Arabs kill Arabs and the Jews get blamed for it.”
As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.
Let’s go back to the Apollo 13 crisis of April 1970. One of the top engineers at Grumman is an Orthodox Jew. The entire engineer staff will be needed to help the LM Aquarius perform a critical burn that will ensure the spacecraft’s return to earth. The burn must be done at 11:00 pm Friday night. If it’s not done, the crew will be lost.
Does anyone really believe that if this engineer said in front of the world that his religious beliefs forbid him to rescue these astronauts on the Shabbat because they’re non-Jews, “….the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew….”?
How about every Jewish community being dead five minutes later?
“….the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew….”
Never mind that making an attempt is what decent human beings do. The strictures of religion preclude doing what most would consider the decent thing.
Sickening and despicable. Another reason not to be observant.
The strict Halacha is the same as English common law that one is not legally obliged to rescue someone and can therefore not be punished for failing to do so. One is not one’s brother’s keeper.
That said it is a big mitzvah to do so because “neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbor” Leviticus 19.16
The rabbis have interpreted ‘thy neighbor’ restrictively to exclude non-Jews. Some have gone further and said that not only is it no mitzvah to rescue non-Jews, it is prohibited to do so unless you can get something out of it. It is similar to interest on loans. Some rabbis hold that not only are you allowed to charge non-Jews interest on loans but that you must.
It is however important to understand that the prohibition against saving non-Jews for free (or lending them money without interest) is considered a rabbinical prohibition (de rabbanan, not d’orisah) and there is no punishment for its breach and it can be ignored if it is advantageous to do so. That explains why from a Halachic point of view the rabbinic prohibition is of no practical relevance and Hatzolah has no problem rescuing non-Jews.
In Yoel Mechanic’s list of questions, he missed asking whether a prohibition is biblical or rabbinical. All these unPC prohibitions against saving the life of a gentile or returning his lost property or giving him free loans are all rabbinical and there is an overriding principle that you can ignore rabbinical prohibitions should they prove too burdensome, expensive or dangerous. So from a practical point of view all these unPC prohibitions in Avodah Zarah can safely be ignored. The immature idiot at the yiddish website hate for gentiles made him forget that overriding principle.
However when a non-Jew needs rescuing on Shabbos, then you may be faced with a d’orisah (biblical) prohibition, if the rescue requires breaching the av malachos. (If you can rescue the non-Jew by not breaching Shabbos or only breaching rabbinical as opposed to biblical prohibitions then this is not a serious problem). The halacha allows breach of the av malachos to save the life of a non-Jew only if failing to do so would submit the Jewish community to violent retaliation. This reason is sometimes given for allowing Hatzolah to save non-Jews on Shabbos but most Hareidi rabbis say that in today’s democratic and law abiding Western countries, the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew. However in most cases you can avoid breaching a biblical prohibition on Shabbos through a shinui or asking a gentile to carry out the ‘work’ so again this issue is somewhat irrelevant in actual practice.
What a BLATANT LIE!
Posted by: Tastekosher | August 31, 2013 at 09:56 PM
I spoke to a friend who’s a YU musmach. He said that its true. The only reason we save them is because otherwise they might not save us when we need them.
Anuran, we are basically on the same page. In my first response to you I was pointing out that an anti-semite hates all Jews (as a race) and is not merely opposed to an odious doctrine (that many Jews, like you and me oppose anyway). Immoral laws in any ancient texts do not justify the hatred of a whole race of people – especially if many of them are opposed to the text anyway! This could have been used to cause anti-semitism and fuel it – but it does not logically justify it.
In my second response I was reacting to your strong polemical language:
‘Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. ‘
A garish caricature which is reminiscent of much anti-semitic propaganda.
‘This is the simple truth of your version of Judaism.’
Actually, I can’t be bothered to hold a version of Judaism – I’m attached to neither the religious doctrines nor the culture. And like you I actively oppose the Haredi version for obvious reasons…
Hope that cleared things up!
This law is disgusting and reinforces my decision to abandon Judaism. It really shows the non-divine nature of Jewish law, not to mention its lack of compassion and love for all human beings.
“Under both Halacha and common law one is not under any LEGAL (as opposed to moral) obligation to rescue any person from death unless one has directly caused that person to be in that position. So an adult who comes upon a small child drowning in 3 feet of water is not legally obliged to rescue that child. However if someone pushes another into a pool than one is legally liable if he drowns.”
Barry, this is 100% wrong!!
There is a clear halachik requirement to save a persons life.It is stated in the BIBLE “lo taamod al dam re’echa”, which means that one should not idle when another persons life is in danger.The Talmud relates that one who sees a woman drowning and does not want to save her because of misplaced piety, is an ignorant fool.
In fact some rule that one must put theur own lives in jeopardy to save another person.
I did not gain as much clarity on these halachos from the discussion as I would have liked. Consider these categories:
1. obligatory (ie required, presumably with punishment for not fulfilling the obligation)
2. recommended
3. not recommended
4. forbidden
I was unsure from the above discussion and felt at times the boundaries between these categories were obscured, or conflated.
Let me give a contrast with American law to see the point. A US Navel officer once told me that although she received extensive training in the Navy she would not attempt to save someone from drowning. Why? Because she learned in her training that here is no obligation to save anyone in US law. However if you attempt to save, and something goes wrong during the rescue you open yourself up to all kinds of litigation. She has made her decision to protect herself in advance.
I’ve heard that there are various so-called Good Samaritan laws that could serve to protect someone who does stop at a traffic accident, for instance, and attempt to save a life. I am not familiar with the details, but this further underscores the concept that there seems to be NO obligation to save a life you come across under such circumstances. In fact, volunteers have need of protection from legal action.
Therefore I hope people can see how more clarity is needed when understanding any legal system; and how it operates historically and in current contemporary life.
What a BLATANT LIE! My husband as a Hatzolah member has numerous times tried to save the lives of non-jews! And would again too! Perhaps not at the risk of his own life – but PLEASE! What foolish lies thou spreadest…
@anuran: Absolutely right.
Any religious leader who teaches his followers that their favored deity values the life of a non-believer less than that of a believer is a despicable and immoral fool. Teaching that one should try saving the life of a non-believer only if someone’s watching who might, should the believer fail to exert himself fully in an attempt to save that life, cast aspersions on the believer’s religious group is to divorce himself and those who toe that line, in my opinion, from the community of decent moral human beings. Have these people never heard of the Golden Rule?
Am I being judgmental? Damn right I am. In this case we’re talking about Jews. Anyone who adheres to that viewpoint is no Jew I’d want to have anything to do with. Cheat, steal, lie, exploit – do anything they want to non-Haredim including to non-Haredi Jews. These people make Shylock look like an angel. All Jews will be tarred with the same brush in the mind of any non-Jew who has had a negative encounter with some of these amoral lowlifes and we will all come away the worse for it.
the standard charidie defense that no one has brought up is, yes we only save because we might get caught not saving but since there is no morality w/o god or the torah it must be that they (the goyim) only save for that reason so y should we be more morally bound to save them than they r to save us didn’t any of you learn in yeshiva?
a prayer by r’ cherlow, that can possibly make amend to the sickening morons:
http://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2013/08/29/rav-yuval-cherlow-composes-prayer-for-the-situation-in-syria/
Ah, so I’m a Nazi and want to kill Jews because Jewish theology is abhorrent. Try harder.
What we have here is a theology which requires you to treat most of humanity as sub-human. Under halacha Gentiles don’t have real souls. Their works are evil. We go out of our way to save a Jewish life. We can ignore the lives of goy filth unless it makes us look bad. We demand equal treatment in their Courts. Our Torah requires they be given kangaroo Courts with the skids greased to the executioner’s block.
This is the simple truth of your version of Judaism. Recognizing it is the first step towards changing it. If it doesn’t change all moral people should abandon it. That applies to anyone’s theology, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or Flying Spaghetti Monster.
lets not forget since this applies to many of us. one cannot save an apikoros live on shabbos either if you know they will never repent. But one may save that live on shabbas since just maybe he will repent and become shommer shabbos again.
Anuran, no, I’m afraid you are bullshitting yourself here: there is ‘tortuous logic’ and there is clear thinking. The concept ‘Judaism’ is allowing you to conflate entirely different things: the Jewish people as a race (genetic, if you like), Jewish culture (eating caneidalach) and Jewish Religion. As in Christianity there are various forms (Catholic, protestant, etc) so in Judaism there are variations. Some types of Judaism (the religion) claim that those texts do reflect the prejudice and bigotry of the times. These groups believe that religion is something that needs to evolve.
Furthermore, your phrase ‘your kind’ is worrying. It reflects the same us-them mentality as these texts represent.
‘Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. ‘
You sound like you have stepped straight out of the 3rd Reich: this kind of hysterical and grotesque rhetoric doesn’t impress anyone here. Whether it comes from Jews who despise ‘goyim’ or ‘goyim’ who despise Jews it all comes out sounding like the same hate-dreched drivel.
Hia5, I just read the Daat Emet article. It’s sickening
Sorry , Gollum, but it’s different. If Judaism requires you to let the Goy die (unless God forbid it would make the Chosen People look bad), if it teaches that stealing from the Untermenschen and the government is fine as long as you don’t get caught it is fundamentally corrupt and evil.
Don’t try bullshitting me. Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. If real Torah-True Judaism teaches this it deserves to be eradicated. There is nothing holy about it.
Gollum recommended seeing Daat Emet on Gentiles in Halacha and I know of no better concise source. And for those of you who want sources from Chazal, this is the place to find them:
http://www.daatemet.org/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119&lang=en
wow – I don’t feel so bad about the bj or 30 I got from bp girls at Brooklyn college – any opine lol – not like you got them lmao
Barry @ 6:07PM
I actually learned the concept of “tinok shenishba” in a Tanya class at Chabad. So the generalization re rejecting the concept of “captured children” does not apply to all Chassidim.
horatio –
youre right. i consciously left it out because it sounds so bad.
ah-pee-chorus @8:55PM
++++one may not violate shabbos to save a life…..+++++
For the sake of accuracy, that should have specified “the life of a goy”.
Pikuach nefesh just for yidden. What about pedophiles, does pikuach nefesh apply? or is it just righteous gentiles whom we cannot save on Shabbos.
THIS IS ALL PRETTY SICKENING.
Barry @ 6:07 PM:
Thank you. I never knew any of this and was especially shocked by the concept that rescuing a nonbeliever was forbidden because the world is healed by ridding it of an idolater.
This is just unspeakable, and it is telling that the persons holding this belief do not want non-Jews to know that it exists.
halacha absolutely PROHIBITS stealing from goyim. even if theyre an idolater.
Shulchan Aruch (and Tur) in Choshen Mishpat 348:2
the rambam at the beginning of the laws of stealing states it explicitly.
however this doesnt apply to finding a lost object, and one may not violate shabbos to save a life and one risks being put to death himself if he does so.
so how does this fit in (keep in mind I am a Roman Catholic married to a formerly religious woman ) – many years ago in front of k mart in Monroe I put a quarter in the ride for my daughter and let the kj kids hop on – out of the blue one of the kj kids hopped off and zoomed into the parking lot – had I not grabbed him by his collar he would have been creamed – the mother could not thank me enough, smacked and yelled at him – so as a goy what is your opinion – would the frum spies here care to opine
It is my understanding that according to Haredi Judaism – or at least according to what is taught at Neve – Ohr Sameyach’s sister – the further we move from Sinai, the more degraded we become. It follows that what we see as moral progress, they see as regress. The further back we go (to the supposed Sinai revelation) the holier we were; the greater our spiritual and moral stature.
The whole idea of Rabbis ‘coming around’ or ‘beginning to see’ goes completely against the grain of their philosophy. It is not just their way of dress that has been frozen but their entire outlook which is trenchantly opposed to change.
The absurdity of deciding how to deal with certain crimes by considering whether the Rabbis of old would sentence the accused to be put to death, stoned or simply flogged is utterly backwards. Even if the sentences were never carried out, the general paradigm is flagrantly primitive.
@Abu
Won’t speak for MO, but no…….This is not the Conservative understanding of the hallachah. Sources after Shabbes.
@Barry
Good source, but one does not poskim hallachah straight from the Gemara.
Thanks,Barry!In Tacitus’ book “Germania” it says that ancient Germans used to throw gay people in latrines as a form of humiliating punishment.
Now,if any German today came up with the idea of introducing this custom in today’s Germany,all the world would rightfully call for him being locked up in an asylum.
The same would happen to an Englishman who would want to burn witches just because his forefathers deemed it right.
Why is it that Jews and Muslims get away with these idiotic,primitive lunacies?
Under both Halacha and common law one is not under any LEGAL (as opposed to moral) obligation to rescue any person from death unless one has directly caused that person to be in that position. So an adult who comes upon a small child drowning in 3 feet of water is not legally obliged to rescue that child. However if someone pushes another into a pool than one is legally liable if he drowns.
The Gemara in Avodah Zarah 26b states that as regards idolaters and Jewish shepherds of small cattle (who as assumed to be thieves as they graze on other peoples land) one must stick to strict legal duty not to endanger them by your actions (either directly or indirectly) but one must not exercise the non-legal but moral duty to rescue them from a danger you have not brought about since ridding the world of idolaters and thieves is a Tikun Olam. As regards Jewish apostates, you may indirectly endanger them (something not allowed for idolaters) as under Roman Law you are not liable for indirect consequences of your actions but only for direct consequences, eg if I throw a brick out of a window and it hits someone then I am liable but if someone later trips up over it at night, then I am not.
Now it is possible to interpret the reference to ‘idolaters’ as pagan idol worshippers of that particular era so as to argue that this harsh prohibition does not apply to Christians and Muslims (as the Rambam does) just as the harshness of the obligation to indirectly kill aspostate Jews is avoided by some rabbis assuming secular Jews to be ‘captured children’. However ultraorthodox Jews especially Hasidim mainly refuse to do so.
It is not unusual to find shockingly bigoted and unPC ideas in ancient texts and modern Jews today should not be ashamed of that any more than an adult should be ashamed of once having been a child with childish habits and ideas.
What is sad is that Hassidim and Gedolim by refusing to deviate in any way from primitive ideas have morally speaking stifled their development so as still to remain in diapers and they see nothing wrong and are indeed proud of that embarrassing fact.
Shmaryah,but is this sick racist menatlity common only among charedim or also among Modern Ortho and Conservatives?
JiminBkln and Moisheb –
As I noted above: The normative halakhic position on saving life is, unfortunately, what was posted in Yiddish above.
We generally don’t follow it because if we don’t save them, they won’t save us and might in fact kill us. This is openly stated in rabbinic literature.
If you both were not ignoramuses and rank apologists, you would have known that.
So,Moisheb if it’s not true,why don’t you enlighten us poor am ha aretz about the truth of the matter?
You see what any idiot could post online !!! You know very well that this is not the halacha ! Why are you repeating this crazy quote ?
Scott doing again what he does best.Blood libels.
Are you not ashamed to write this baseless tripe?
Don’t you even know a simple passage in the Bible,Leviticus chapter 35, that one must support the non Jewish inhabitants amongst you?
Nachmanadies clearly states that one of the commandments is to save such a persons life and heal him if he is sick
Assuming that according to Halacha, a Jew may not save the life of a non-Jew, what other ridiculous rules are part of Halacha?
could someone please cite the source for this (preferably translated into english)
this is a very serious matter
Further to my comment above, not only would the frumma expect the goyim to save them, they would expect them to do so even at the risk of their own (goyim’s) life. And then more than likely not thank them for doing so.
Could someone kindly translate the yiddisch writing and quote the sources which teach us not to save goyim’s lives?
This further proves that the frumma are without moral foundation or common sense. If the Shulcan Aruch told them to chop the right arm off their newborns, 99.9% of them would do it. Of course, the frumma would expect the goyim to save them, even if the converse is not true (else they would be antisemites). It should be like organ donation should be – if you are not prepared to do it you should not be eligible to receive.
‘Is this true? If it’s not, the people reading should have torn him a new one. If it is, the antisemites are right, and the Jewish religion deserves to be obliterated’
Well that way of thinking is nearly as crude as the torah. Anti-semites hate all Jews, but only a portion of Jews are so morally regressed that they believe in their own racial superiority! Yes, those who believe God said all this on top of a mountain, or through the mouths of medieval ‘sages’ tend to be somewhat arrested…
menashe hakatan is ruling against the beer hagolah? is he writing that lo signov doesnt apply to goyim, which even the yam shel shlomo applies midrabannan at least? cant be he was that ignorant.
gotta hand it to Shmarya for posting the picture of the dead Syrian children, which exposes the true ghastliness of this way of thinking.
“BS–you cant steal from a non-jew, either. Where are these people coming from? Are they completely ignorant?
Posted by: Yonah Lazar | August 30, 2013 at 01:54 PM”
No. Actually, the normative halakhic position on saving life is, unfortunately, what was posted in Yiddish above.
We generally don’t follow it because if we don’t save them, they won’t save us and might in fact kill us. This is openly stated in rabbinic literature.
As for stealing, Menashe Hakutan ruled that you can steal from the government (and I think from “goyyim” as well) as long as you don’t get caught.
Lots of haredi criminals rely on that peak.
not saying that ios what people do, just saying what halhacha states
What is the source of this halacha
so you CAN even violate sabbath to save a non-jew.
Posted by: Yonah Lazar | August 30, 2013 at 02:32 PM
YES but NOT because it is the right thing to do, to save another humane life. No, that is not the reason, it is because if found out some harm might happen to Jews. If one knows it can never be found out then let him die.
Think about that before you comment.
so you CAN even violate sabbath to save a non-jew.
not sure about the above but one cannot violate shabbos to save a goy. But you can since it mighty cause harm to Jews if it is found out
BS–you cant steal from a non-jew, either. Where are these people coming from? Are they completely ignorant?
Is this true? If it’s not, the people reading should have torn him a new one. If it is, the antisemites are right, and the Jewish religion deserves to be obliterated
And for more warm fuzzies from The Torah visit the Daat Emet page on Gentiles in halacha!
But that’s not true–Jews are obligated to save non-Jews. What on Earth is this guy talking about?
I would also like to make up rules and laws as I go along. How do I get this authority?
I’m pretty sure what he just said falls along the lines of a chilul Hashem.
Anti-Semitism, while often reprehensible, can sometimes be understandable thanks to vile cretins like this guy, or those Breslovers desecrating the Jesus statue/insisting it be removed in Ukraine. It doesn’t justify anti-Semitism, but it explains some of it
Cringe.
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