Non-Jews cannot be saved from death and shouldn’t find out

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AUGUST 30, 2013

 

COMMENTS

 

SkepticalYid said…

Posted by: Gollum | September 02, 2013 at 05:42 PM

He’s an advocate for a cult grounded in superstition and obscurantist thinking. Debating via logic and science is pointless.

 

Jeff said…

Worthless piece of gutter trash – typical of the filth Chabad has been taking in over the past three decades. Fortunately, you and your fellow psychopaths will be the destruction of your obscene, idolatrous cult.

The Vilna Gaon knew how to deal with your kind. I’m only sorry he was prevented from finishing the job.

 

Gollum said…

On the contrary, self-preservation is a law of nature. Every conscious being regards it as such. Those principles that lead us to care for others (not just ones family, or exclusively ones own tribe), only such principles can be considered ‘holy’.

 

Menachem said…

Gollum
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
Our life comes first is a holy principle.

 

Gollum said…

Menachem, on your view the following statement reflects an admirable and holy sentiment:

‘As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.’

The rest of us here find this kind of thing cynical, and in the context of a spiritual tradition, truly perverse. That is the difference between you and your opponents. Your opponents look at the content of the tradition and know, by the light inside them, that this way of thinking is base, revolting and to be condemned.

All sorts of chicanery and false philosophy has been used on you to convince you that you have no internal light and that you are entirely dependent on these texts for any sense of morality. I assume that is why you feel the need to defend a doctrine which cannot be defended on the grounds of decency, let alone holiness.

 

Menachem said…

Chicago Sam,
It all boil down to a holy life vs an unholy one. Without the observance of Torah and mitvos one has a “bestial,(“animalistic”) existence hence the severe condemnation in the passage you cited of those who choose not to– how much moreso gentiles who don’t keep the sheva mitzvos.

 

Menachem said…

Btw, Jeff

Since you made an oblique reference to eating the BLT bedafka on Thursday, Rosh Hashana, as if it would be merely an innocuous act, Here is what my Rav once told us:
“There was once a–yet-to-be observant Jew who offered an observation to me to the contrary of what I had been teaching him for many years re the misfortune of eating voluntarily on Yom Kippur:
Rabbi didn’t you teach us many years ago that it is an issur korais to eat on Yom Kippur?
Well not only did I eat on that day, but I regularly devour on Yom Kipur a ham sandwich! And, look I am still alive!’
So what did I reply, ‘You say that you are still alive…,but I say,according to the reality of the Torah, you are really dead!
A word to the wise…

 

Chicago Sam said…

Haredim’s view of Gentiles is not much different from their attitude toward non-Orthodox Jews, which they predicate upon the interpretation:

אנציקלופדיה תלמודית כרך א, אהבת ישראל [טור ריא]

Examples of this can be found in the Gemorah in Pesachim 49b:

אכן אין מצות ואהבת לרעך אלא על אחיך בתורה ומצוות, שרעך נקרא רעך בתורה ובמצוות, או ש”כמוך” פירושו כמוך במצוות.

וכך יש לנהוג בעם נארץ, על פי הגמרא במסכת פסחים מ”ט ע”ב:

תנו רבנן: לעולם ימכור אדם כל מה שיש לו וישא בת תלמיד חכם. לא מצא בת תלמיד חכם – ישא בת גדולי הדור. לא מצא בת גדולי הדור – ישא בת ראשי כנסיות, לא מצא בת ראשי כנסיות – ישא בת גבאי צדקה. לא מצא בת גבאי צדקה – ישא בת מלמדי תינוקות. ולא ישא בת עמי הארץ, מפני שהן שקץ, ונשותיהן שרץ, ועל בנותיהן הוא אומר (דברים כ”ז) ארור שוכב עם כל בהמה.
תניא, רבי אומר: עם הארץ אסור לאכול בשר שנאמר (ויקרא י”א) זאת תורת הבהמה והעוף, כל העוסק בתורה – מותר לאכול בשר בהמה ועוף, וכל שאינו עוסק בתורה – אסור לאכול בשר בהמה ועוף. אמר רבי אלעזר: עם הארץ מותר לנוחרו ביום הכיפורים שחל להיות בשבת. אמרו לו תלמידיו: רבי, אמור לשוחטו! – אמר להן: זה – טעון ברכה, וזה – אינו טעון ברכה. אמר רבי אלעזר: עם הארץ אסור להתלוות עמו בדרך, שנאמר (דברים ל’) כי הוא חייך ואורך ימיך, על חייו לא חס – על חיי חבירו לא כל שכן. אמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני אמר רבי יוחנן: עם הארץ מותר לקורעו כדג. אמר רבי שמואל בר יצחק: ומגבו. תניא, אמר רבי עקיבא: כשהייתי עם הארץ אמרתי: מי יתן לי תלמיד חכם ואנשכנו כחמור. אמרו לו תלמידיו: רבי, אמור ככלב! – אמר להן: זה – נושך ושובר עצם, וזה – נושך ואינו שובר עצם. תניא, היה רבי מאיר אומר: כל המשיא בתו לעם הארץ – כאילו כופתה ומניחה לפני ארי. מה ארי דורס ואוכל ואין לו בושת פנים – אף עם הארץ מכה ובועל ואין לו בושת פנים. תניא, רבי אליעזר אומר: אילמלא אנו צריכים להם למשא ומתן – היו הורגין אותנו. תנא רבי חייא: כל העוסק בתורה לפני עם הארץ – כאילו בועל ארוסתו בפניו, שנאמר (דברים ל”ג) תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה, אל תקרי מורשה אלא מאורסה. גדולה שנאה ששונאין עמי הארץ לתלמיד חכם, יותר משנאה ששונאין אומות העולם את ישראל, ונשותיהן יותר מהן. תנא: שנה ופירש – יותר מכולן. תנו רבנן: ששה דברים נאמרו בעמי הארץ: אין מוסרין להן עדות, ואין מקבלין ממנו עדות, ואין מגלין להן סוד, ואין ממנין אותן אפוטרופוס על היתומים, ואין ממנין אותן אפוטרופוס על קופה של צדקה, ואין מתלוין עמהן בדרך. ויש אומרים: אף אין מכריזין על אבידתו. – ותנא קמא: זמנין דנפיק מיניה זרעא מעליא ואכיל ליה, שנאמר (איוב כ”ז) יכין וצדיק ילבש.

Our Rabbis taught: Let a man always sell all he has and marry the daughter of a scholar. If he does not find1 the daughter of a scholar, let him marry the daughter of [one of] the great men of the generation.2 If he does not find the daughter of [one of] the great men of the generation, let him marry the daughter of the head of synagogues. If he does not find the daughter of the head of synagogues,3 let him marry the daughter of a charity treasurer. If he does not find the daughter of a charity treasurer, let him marry the daughter of an elementary school-teacher, but let him not marry the daughter of an ‘am ha-arez, because they are detestable and their wives are vermin, and of their daughters it is said, Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast.4

It was taught, Rabbi said: An ‘am ha-arez may not eat the flesh of cattle, for it is said, This is the law [Torah] of the beast, and of the fowl;5 whoever engages in [the study of] the Torah may eat the flesh of beast and fowl, but he who does not engage in [the study of] the Torah may not eat the flesh of beast and fowl.

R. Eleazar said: An ‘am ha-arez, it is permitted to stab him [even] on the Day of Atonement which falls on the Sabbath. Said his disciples to him, Master, say to slaughter him [ritually]? He replied: This [ritual slaughter] requires a benediction, whereas that [stabbing] does not require a benediction. R. Eleazar said: One must not join company with an ‘am ha-arez on the road, because it is said, for that [the Torah] is thy life, and the length of thy days:6 [seeing that] he has no care [pity] for his own life,7 how much the more for the life of his companions! R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in R. Johanan’s name: One may tear an ‘am haarez like a fish! Said R. Samuel b. Isaac: And [this means] along his back.

It was taught, R. Akiba said: When I was an ‘am ha-arez8 I said: I would that I had a scholar [before me], and I would maul him like an ass. Said his disciples to him, Rabbi, say like a dog! The former bites and breaks the bones, while the latter bites but does not break the bones, he answered them.

It was taught, R. Meir used to say: Whoever marries his daughter to an ‘am ha-arez, is as though he bound and laid her before a lion: just as a lion tears [his prey] and devours it and has no shame, so an ‘am ha-arez strikes and cohabits and has no shame.

It was taught, R. Eliezer said: But that we are necessary to them for trade, they would kill us. R. Hiyya taught: Whoever studies9 the Torah in front of an ‘am ha-arez, is as though he cohabited with his betrothed in his presence,10 for it is said, Moses commanded us a law, an inheritance [morashah] of the congregation of Jacob:11 read not morashah but me’orasah [the betrothed].12 Greater is the hatred wherewith the ‘amme ha-arez, hate the scholar than the hatred wherewith the heathens hate Israel, and their wives [hate even] more than they. It was taught: He who has studied and then abandoned [the Torah] [hates the scholar] more than all of them.13 Our Rabbis taught: Six things were said of the ‘amme ha-arez’: We do not commit testimony to them; we do not accept testimony from them; we do not reveal a secret to them; we do not appoint them as guardians for orphans; we do not appoint them stewards14 over charity funds; and we must not join their company on the road. Some say, We do not proclaim their losses too.15 And the first Tanna?16 — Virtuous seed may sometimes issue from him, and they will enjoy17 it, as it is said, He will prepare it, and the just shall put it on.18

[Soncino trans.]

The point of this discussion is clear: Once we demonize our fellow non-Orthodox Jews, it is a small step before we demonize or marginalize the Gentile, as seen in the Haredi/Hassidic view mentioned above.

 

SkepticalYid said…

Posted by: Menachem | September 02, 2013 at 10:55 AM

You’re lying again. It was CHABAD that perpetrated most
Of the abuse , CHABAD that protected the molesters , CHABAD. That persecutes the victim families. It’s typical of your deceit and obfuscation that you equate Chabad with Jews (usually secular) who contribute so much to the world.

 

Jeff said…

“Yes, that Melbourne community–which would have been much worse off without the overall influence Lubavitch had on the denizens there in toto. The same could be said about the world at large without the Jews!”

Only a vile, irredeemable piece of filth such as yourself could make a statement such as this.

The world might have been worse off without the Jews, but it would be infinitely better off without you. I hope this festers upon your soul like an open wound as you pray to be forgiven for your sins in the coming days.

 

Menachem said…

Yes, that Melbourne community–which would have been much worse off without the overall influence Lubavitch had on the denizens there in toto. The same could be said about the world at large without the Jews!

 

SkepticalYid said…

Posted by: Menachem | September 02, 2013 at 10:07 AM

The same Melbourne community that enabled molesters, covers up molestation, persecuted victims of molestation and persecuted the families and advocates for victims.

 

Jeff said…

Yes… I’m afraid all I read was “Blah, blah, blah, “Yechiiiiii!”, blah, blah.

 

Menachem said…

Menachem, I’ll be thinking of you on Thursday as I eat my BLT while cursing your dead con man.
Jeff, do you know what the difference is between
a salesman and a con man? The con man truly believes in his product or service.
This is an example of salesmanship:
The worldwide list compiled by Lunavitch of Sukkahs began in 1994, as a local service to the Jewish community in Melbourne, Australia. In the first year there were only nine Sukkahs on the list as it was organized only a few days before Sukkos. Last year there were 442 Sukkahs listed, located in 27 countries.
This is an example of con manship:
Whoever sold you the blt and convinced you as a Jew that it won’t hurt you, but will be good for you. The latter is the one you should curse– but only after you cut off you nose to spite your face as is your wont.

 

Menachem said…

Menachem, I’ll be thinking of you on Thursday as I eat my BLT while cursing your dead con man.
Jeff, do you know the difference between a

 

SkepticalYid said…

Posted by: Jeff | September 02, 2013 at 06:03

When Mendel is allowed to post, it confirms the twisted agenda he and his cult disseminate. Their pretense of tolerance and acceptance is stripped away. We see them for what they truly are. Hopefully, that will also open the eyes of others who have been taken in by their missionary propaganda.

 

Jeff said…

Shmarya, I thought you banned this raving lunatic.

Menachem, I’ll be thinking of you on Thursday as I eat my BLT while cursing your dead con man.

 

Gollum said…

Menachem:

‘As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.’

It sounds like you may be in line for the Nobel Prize for Peace!

Anuran, your grandfather sounds like a wonderful man; and I’m sure there are many instances in which Torah (and religion in general) has motivated people to do great, kind and loving deeds.

 

Menachem said…

Isa, the Tanya does not say gentiles are subhuman;it says they are sub-Jewish!

There are five categories of creation:

Midaber–the speaker,Humans
Animals
Vegetable
Domaim– Mineral
And the Fifth, above all of the sub-categories,
is the Jew.

 

anuran said…

Gollum, glad to see we’re on the same page here less some strong language.

The sad thing is plenty of observant Jews have used the version of halacha they followed as a reason to be kind, to save lives, to love justice.

My grandfather was as Old Country Galitzianer as you could be. Burned his toenail clippings, shomer shabbos and everything. He made his living in real estate. Sometimes a farmer died leaving an elderly widow or a large family with no way of making a living. He would quietly write off the note or forgo payment until the family was back on its feet. He said it was a mitzvah to take care of widows and orphans.

His religion gave him a lot of strange rules. But it included a good heart and allowed him to live in the real world.

That’s the difference. Charedism closes off the heart first from Gentiles, then from Jews who aren’t quite the same and finally, I suppose, from oneself. And it doesn’t make it possible to live a good life as a religious Jew in the real world. That’s what makes it something to flee.

 

Menachem said…

When the mentioned Halacha was ‘written’ there were no such other people that worshiped the same G-d that we do

Of course Chabad in particular regards non-Jews as subhuman because of the Tanya

Isa, we do not worship the same G-d as they do!
They worship a shituf and as such they according to Nodeh B’Yehuda remain in the category of idoloters:

According to the Nodah Biyhudah,* the Rama agrees with the Rambam that any religion of shittuf would be forbidden to gentiles (nor did the Rama ever indicate that Christianity was shittuf rather than idolatry).Nodah Biyhudah – Mahdura Tinyasa 148
“Behold, I say that they have tied a rope to a rope and a strand to a strand; where does this ‘chacham’ get this idea that the gentiles are not commanded concerning shittuf?! And nevertheless this thing is found in the mouths of many chachamim… and I have toiled and I have not found this thing either in the Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud, and not in any of the gedolei harishonim; and if this was true, then the Rambam should have brought in Hilchos Melachim as a psak halacha that a gentile is not commanded on avoda zarah with shittuf, so why did he exempt this din? He also contests that, regarding avoda zarah, there is no difference between a Jew and a gentile, for behold, an explicit baraisa in Maseches Sanhedrin 56b states, ‘Everything that a Jewish beis din executes upon, b’nei Noah are warned concerning them’; and likewise in Hilchos Melachim 9:2… and it seems to me that the fact that it has become commonplace for people to say that b’nei Noah are not warned concerning shittuf is according to an error they made in reading Tosafos in Maseches Bechoros 2b…. In light of [Tosafos] the Rama poskaned in Orech Chairn 156…. These words have been misconstrued by many chachamim who reasoned that the intention of the Rama is that b’nei Noah are not commanded concerning serving avodah zarah in shittuf. However, this is not in fact the case. The intention of the Tosephos and the Rama is that combining the Name of Heaven with something else in an oath does not constitute the actual worship of idolatry; rather he is combining the Name of Heaven with something else, but he is not calling in the name of Elokim and he is not saying ‘you are my g-d.’ Instead, he is merely mentioning him in his oath with the Name of Heaven in a manner of honor, regarding which we find a prohibition upon Israel, as it is written ‘and in His Name shall you swear’; this is a warning to Israel not to swear except in His Name (blessed be He) and not to combine the Name of Heaven and something else, as the Rambam wrote in 11:2 of Hilchos Shevuos —and the gentiles are not warned regarding this shittuf. However, regarding the service of avoda zarah with shittuf, there is no difference between a Jew and a gentile!… The general principle that we have received is that anything for which a Jewish court administers death upon, the gentiles are also forewarned upon, as we wrote above. Afterwards I saw in the Sefer Meil Tzeddaka in sec. 22, who also makes the same distinction; however, he did not bring the proof which I have written here….”

 

Isa said…

A partial quore from Barry:

“””Now it is possible to interpret the reference to ‘idolaters’ as pagan idol worshippers of that particular era so as to argue that this harsh prohibition does not apply to Christians and Muslims (as the Rambam does)”””

I believe this is what a MO rabbi would rule. When the mentioned Halacha was ‘written’ there were no such other people that worshiped the same G-d that we do

Of course Chabad in particular regards non-Jews as subhuman because of the Tanya

 

Menachem said…

Should Jews do what ever they can to save Coptic Christians ala “Never Again!”? No! That motto inextricably refers to us; not to Gentiles.
Arik Sharon said it best re Sabra and Shatilla wherein he did nothing to prevent or stop Christians from killing Muslims whom they hated because of generations of assaults:
Arabs kill Arabs and the Jews get blamed for it.”
As long as they are killing each other they can not be killing us; so, more power to them.

 

Harold F said…

Let’s go back to the Apollo 13 crisis of April 1970. One of the top engineers at Grumman is an Orthodox Jew. The entire engineer staff will be needed to help the LM Aquarius perform a critical burn that will ensure the spacecraft’s return to earth. The burn must be done at 11:00 pm Friday night. If it’s not done, the crew will be lost.

Does anyone really believe that if this engineer said in front of the world that his religious beliefs forbid him to rescue these astronauts on the Shabbat because they’re non-Jews, “….the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew….”?

How about every Jewish community being dead five minutes later?

 

S M L said…

“….the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew….”

Never mind that making an attempt is what decent human beings do. The strictures of religion preclude doing what most would consider the decent thing.

Sickening and despicable. Another reason not to be observant.

 

Barry said…

The strict Halacha is the same as English common law that one is not legally obliged to rescue someone and can therefore not be punished for failing to do so. One is not one’s brother’s keeper.

That said it is a big mitzvah to do so because “neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbor” Leviticus 19.16

The rabbis have interpreted ‘thy neighbor’ restrictively to exclude non-Jews. Some have gone further and said that not only is it no mitzvah to rescue non-Jews, it is prohibited to do so unless you can get something out of it. It is similar to interest on loans. Some rabbis hold that not only are you allowed to charge non-Jews interest on loans but that you must.

It is however important to understand that the prohibition against saving non-Jews for free (or lending them money without interest) is considered a rabbinical prohibition (de rabbanan, not d’orisah) and there is no punishment for its breach and it can be ignored if it is advantageous to do so. That explains why from a Halachic point of view the rabbinic prohibition is of no practical relevance and Hatzolah has no problem rescuing non-Jews.

In Yoel Mechanic’s list of questions, he missed asking whether a prohibition is biblical or rabbinical. All these unPC prohibitions against saving the life of a gentile or returning his lost property or giving him free loans are all rabbinical and there is an overriding principle that you can ignore rabbinical prohibitions should they prove too burdensome, expensive or dangerous. So from a practical point of view all these unPC prohibitions in Avodah Zarah can safely be ignored. The immature idiot at the yiddish website hate for gentiles made him forget that overriding principle.

However when a non-Jew needs rescuing on Shabbos, then you may be faced with a d’orisah (biblical) prohibition, if the rescue requires breaching the av malachos. (If you can rescue the non-Jew by not breaching Shabbos or only breaching rabbinical as opposed to biblical prohibitions then this is not a serious problem). The halacha allows breach of the av malachos to save the life of a non-Jew only if failing to do so would submit the Jewish community to violent retaliation. This reason is sometimes given for allowing Hatzolah to save non-Jews on Shabbos but most Hareidi rabbis say that in today’s democratic and law abiding Western countries, the worst that the Jewish community would face for failing to rescue non-Jews is disgust and contempt rather than violent retaliation and that therefore one must not breach biblical Shabbos laws (as opposed to rabbinic ones) to rescue a non Jew. However in most cases you can avoid breaching a biblical prohibition on Shabbos through a shinui or asking a gentile to carry out the ‘work’ so again this issue is somewhat irrelevant in actual practice.

 

SkepticalYid said…

What a BLATANT LIE!
Posted by: Tastekosher | August 31, 2013 at 09:56 PM

I spoke to a friend who’s a YU musmach. He said that its true. The only reason we save them is because otherwise they might not save us when we need them.

 

Gollum said…

Anuran, we are basically on the same page. In my first response to you I was pointing out that an anti-semite hates all Jews (as a race) and is not merely opposed to an odious doctrine (that many Jews, like you and me oppose anyway). Immoral laws in any ancient texts do not justify the hatred of a whole race of people – especially if many of them are opposed to the text anyway! This could have been used to cause anti-semitism and fuel it – but it does not logically justify it.

In my second response I was reacting to your strong polemical language:

‘Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. ‘

A garish caricature which is reminiscent of much anti-semitic propaganda.

‘This is the simple truth of your version of Judaism.’

Actually, I can’t be bothered to hold a version of Judaism – I’m attached to neither the religious doctrines nor the culture. And like you I actively oppose the Haredi version for obvious reasons…

Hope that cleared things up!

 

SamTheMan said…

This law is disgusting and reinforces my decision to abandon Judaism. It really shows the non-divine nature of Jewish law, not to mention its lack of compassion and love for all human beings.

 

jimmyInBkln said…

“Under both Halacha and common law one is not under any LEGAL (as opposed to moral) obligation to rescue any person from death unless one has directly caused that person to be in that position. So an adult who comes upon a small child drowning in 3 feet of water is not legally obliged to rescue that child. However if someone pushes another into a pool than one is legally liable if he drowns.”

Barry, this is 100% wrong!!
There is a clear halachik requirement to save a persons life.It is stated in the BIBLE “lo taamod al dam re’echa”, which means that one should not idle when another persons life is in danger.The Talmud relates that one who sees a woman drowning and does not want to save her because of misplaced piety, is an ignorant fool.
In fact some rule that one must put theur own lives in jeopardy to save another person.

 

Yoel Mechanic said…

I did not gain as much clarity on these halachos from the discussion as I would have liked. Consider these categories:

1. obligatory (ie required, presumably with punishment for not fulfilling the obligation)
2. recommended
3. not recommended
4. forbidden

I was unsure from the above discussion and felt at times the boundaries between these categories were obscured, or conflated.

Let me give a contrast with American law to see the point. A US Navel officer once told me that although she received extensive training in the Navy she would not attempt to save someone from drowning. Why? Because she learned in her training that here is no obligation to save anyone in US law. However if you attempt to save, and something goes wrong during the rescue you open yourself up to all kinds of litigation. She has made her decision to protect herself in advance.

I’ve heard that there are various so-called Good Samaritan laws that could serve to protect someone who does stop at a traffic accident, for instance, and attempt to save a life. I am not familiar with the details, but this further underscores the concept that there seems to be NO obligation to save a life you come across under such circumstances. In fact, volunteers have need of protection from legal action.

Therefore I hope people can see how more clarity is needed when understanding any legal system; and how it operates historically and in current contemporary life.

 

Tastekosher said…

What a BLATANT LIE! My husband as a Hatzolah member has numerous times tried to save the lives of non-jews! And would again too! Perhaps not at the risk of his own life – but PLEASE! What foolish lies thou spreadest…

 

S M L said…

@anuran: Absolutely right.

Any religious leader who teaches his followers that their favored deity values the life of a non-believer less than that of a believer is a despicable and immoral fool. Teaching that one should try saving the life of a non-believer only if someone’s watching who might, should the believer fail to exert himself fully in an attempt to save that life, cast aspersions on the believer’s religious group is to divorce himself and those who toe that line, in my opinion, from the community of decent moral human beings. Have these people never heard of the Golden Rule?

Am I being judgmental? Damn right I am. In this case we’re talking about Jews. Anyone who adheres to that viewpoint is no Jew I’d want to have anything to do with. Cheat, steal, lie, exploit – do anything they want to non-Haredim including to non-Haredi Jews. These people make Shylock look like an angel. All Jews will be tarred with the same brush in the mind of any non-Jew who has had a negative encounter with some of these amoral lowlifes and we will all come away the worse for it.

 

D said…

the standard charidie defense that no one has brought up is, yes we only save because we might get caught not saving but since there is no morality w/o god or the torah it must be that they (the goyim) only save for that reason so y should we be more morally bound to save them than they r to save us didn’t any of you learn in yeshiva?

 

 

anuran said…

Ah, so I’m a Nazi and want to kill Jews because Jewish theology is abhorrent. Try harder.

What we have here is a theology which requires you to treat most of humanity as sub-human. Under halacha Gentiles don’t have real souls. Their works are evil. We go out of our way to save a Jewish life. We can ignore the lives of goy filth unless it makes us look bad. We demand equal treatment in their Courts. Our Torah requires they be given kangaroo Courts with the skids greased to the executioner’s block.

This is the simple truth of your version of Judaism. Recognizing it is the first step towards changing it. If it doesn’t change all moral people should abandon it. That applies to anyone’s theology, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

seymour said…

lets not forget since this applies to many of us. one cannot save an apikoros live on shabbos either if you know they will never repent. But one may save that live on shabbas since just maybe he will repent and become shommer shabbos again.

 

Gollum said…

Anuran, no, I’m afraid you are bullshitting yourself here: there is ‘tortuous logic’ and there is clear thinking. The concept ‘Judaism’ is allowing you to conflate entirely different things: the Jewish people as a race (genetic, if you like), Jewish culture (eating caneidalach) and Jewish Religion. As in Christianity there are various forms (Catholic, protestant, etc) so in Judaism there are variations. Some types of Judaism (the religion) claim that those texts do reflect the prejudice and bigotry of the times. These groups believe that religion is something that needs to evolve.

Furthermore, your phrase ‘your kind’ is worrying. It reflects the same us-them mentality as these texts represent.

‘Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. ‘

You sound like you have stepped straight out of the 3rd Reich: this kind of hysterical and grotesque rhetoric doesn’t impress anyone here. Whether it comes from Jews who despise ‘goyim’ or ‘goyim’ who despise Jews it all comes out sounding like the same hate-dreched drivel.

 

anuran said…

Hia5, I just read the Daat Emet article. It’s sickening

 

anuran said…

Sorry , Gollum, but it’s different. If Judaism requires you to let the Goy die (unless God forbid it would make the Chosen People look bad), if it teaches that stealing from the Untermenschen and the government is fine as long as you don’t get caught it is fundamentally corrupt and evil.

Don’t try bullshitting me. Can the sophistry and thumb-dipping, the tortuous logic and screeches about “Blood Libels”. Your kind has cried “Wolf” too often. If real Torah-True Judaism teaches this it deserves to be eradicated. There is nothing holy about it.

 

Hia5 said…

Gollum recommended seeing Daat Emet on Gentiles in Halacha and I know of no better concise source. And for those of you who want sources from Chazal, this is the place to find them:

http://www.daatemet.org/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119&lang=en

 

wow – I don’t feel so bad about the bj or 30 I got from bp girls at Brooklyn college – any opine lol – not like you got them lmao

 

ASSUR said…

Barry @ 6:07PM
I actually learned the concept of “tinok shenishba” in a Tanya class at Chabad. So the generalization re rejecting the concept of “captured children” does not apply to all Chassidim.

 

ah-pee-chorus said…

horatio –

youre right. i consciously left it out because it sounds so bad.

 

ASSUR said…

ah-pee-chorus @8:55PM
++++one may not violate shabbos to save a life…..+++++
For the sake of accuracy, that should have specified “the life of a goy”.
Pikuach nefesh just for yidden. What about pedophiles, does pikuach nefesh apply? or is it just righteous gentiles whom we cannot save on Shabbos.
THIS IS ALL PRETTY SICKENING.

 

Mark H. Jay said…

Barry @ 6:07 PM:

Thank you. I never knew any of this and was especially shocked by the concept that rescuing a nonbeliever was forbidden because the world is healed by ridding it of an idolater.

This is just unspeakable, and it is telling that the persons holding this belief do not want non-Jews to know that it exists.

 

ah-pee-chorus said…

halacha absolutely PROHIBITS stealing from goyim. even if theyre an idolater.

Shulchan Aruch (and Tur) in Choshen Mishpat 348:2

the rambam at the beginning of the laws of stealing states it explicitly.

however this doesnt apply to finding a lost object, and one may not violate shabbos to save a life and one risks being put to death himself if he does so.

 

so how does this fit in (keep in mind I am a Roman Catholic married to a formerly religious woman ) – many years ago in front of k mart in Monroe I put a quarter in the ride for my daughter and let the kj kids hop on – out of the blue one of the kj kids hopped off and zoomed into the parking lot – had I not grabbed him by his collar he would have been creamed – the mother could not thank me enough, smacked and yelled at him – so as a goy what is your opinion – would the frum spies here care to opine

 

Gollum said…

It is my understanding that according to Haredi Judaism – or at least according to what is taught at Neve – Ohr Sameyach’s sister – the further we move from Sinai, the more degraded we become. It follows that what we see as moral progress, they see as regress. The further back we go (to the supposed Sinai revelation) the holier we were; the greater our spiritual and moral stature.

The whole idea of Rabbis ‘coming around’ or ‘beginning to see’ goes completely against the grain of their philosophy. It is not just their way of dress that has been frozen but their entire outlook which is trenchantly opposed to change.

The absurdity of deciding how to deal with certain crimes by considering whether the Rabbis of old would sentence the accused to be put to death, stoned or simply flogged is utterly backwards. Even if the sentences were never carried out, the general paradigm is flagrantly primitive.

 

@Abu

Won’t speak for MO, but no…….This is not the Conservative understanding of the hallachah. Sources after Shabbes.

@Barry

Good source, but one does not poskim hallachah straight from the Gemara.

 

Thanks,Barry!In Tacitus’ book “Germania” it says that ancient Germans used to throw gay people in latrines as a form of humiliating punishment.
Now,if any German today came up with the idea of introducing this custom in today’s Germany,all the world would rightfully call for him being locked up in an asylum.
The same would happen to an Englishman who would want to burn witches just because his forefathers deemed it right.
Why is it that Jews and Muslims get away with these idiotic,primitive lunacies?

 

Barry said…

Under both Halacha and common law one is not under any LEGAL (as opposed to moral) obligation to rescue any person from death unless one has directly caused that person to be in that position. So an adult who comes upon a small child drowning in 3 feet of water is not legally obliged to rescue that child. However if someone pushes another into a pool than one is legally liable if he drowns.

The Gemara in Avodah Zarah 26b states that as regards idolaters and Jewish shepherds of small cattle (who as assumed to be thieves as they graze on other peoples land) one must stick to strict legal duty not to endanger them by your actions (either directly or indirectly) but one must not exercise the non-legal but moral duty to rescue them from a danger you have not brought about since ridding the world of idolaters and thieves is a Tikun Olam. As regards Jewish apostates, you may indirectly endanger them (something not allowed for idolaters) as under Roman Law you are not liable for indirect consequences of your actions but only for direct consequences, eg if I throw a brick out of a window and it hits someone then I am liable but if someone later trips up over it at night, then I am not.

Now it is possible to interpret the reference to ‘idolaters’ as pagan idol worshippers of that particular era so as to argue that this harsh prohibition does not apply to Christians and Muslims (as the Rambam does) just as the harshness of the obligation to indirectly kill aspostate Jews is avoided by some rabbis assuming secular Jews to be ‘captured children’. However ultraorthodox Jews especially Hasidim mainly refuse to do so.

It is not unusual to find shockingly bigoted and unPC ideas in ancient texts and modern Jews today should not be ashamed of that any more than an adult should be ashamed of once having been a child with childish habits and ideas.

What is sad is that Hassidim and Gedolim by refusing to deviate in any way from primitive ideas have morally speaking stifled their development so as still to remain in diapers and they see nothing wrong and are indeed proud of that embarrassing fact.

 

Shmaryah,but is this sick racist menatlity common only among charedim or also among Modern Ortho and Conservatives?

 

Editor said…

JiminBkln and Moisheb –

As I noted above: The normative halakhic position on saving life is, unfortunately, what was posted in Yiddish above.

We generally don’t follow it because if we don’t save them, they won’t save us and might in fact kill us. This is openly stated in rabbinic literature.

If you both were not ignoramuses and rank apologists, you would have known that.

 

So,Moisheb if it’s not true,why don’t you enlighten us poor am ha aretz about the truth of the matter?

 

Moisheb said…

You see what any idiot could post online !!! You know very well that this is not the halacha ! Why are you repeating this crazy quote ?

 

jimmyInBkln said…

Scott doing again what he does best.Blood libels.
Are you not ashamed to write this baseless tripe?
Don’t you even know a simple passage in the Bible,Leviticus chapter 35, that one must support the non Jewish inhabitants amongst you?
Nachmanadies clearly states that one of the commandments is to save such a persons life and heal him if he is sick

 

Runner1983 said…

Assuming that according to Halacha, a Jew may not save the life of a non-Jew, what other ridiculous rules are part of Halacha?

 

ira said…

could someone please cite the source for this (preferably translated into english)

this is a very serious matter

 

David said…

Further to my comment above, not only would the frumma expect the goyim to save them, they would expect them to do so even at the risk of their own (goyim’s) life. And then more than likely not thank them for doing so.

 

Could someone kindly translate the yiddisch writing and quote the sources which teach us not to save goyim’s lives?

 

David said…

This further proves that the frumma are without moral foundation or common sense. If the Shulcan Aruch told them to chop the right arm off their newborns, 99.9% of them would do it. Of course, the frumma would expect the goyim to save them, even if the converse is not true (else they would be antisemites). It should be like organ donation should be – if you are not prepared to do it you should not be eligible to receive.

 

Gollum said…

‘Is this true? If it’s not, the people reading should have torn him a new one. If it is, the antisemites are right, and the Jewish religion deserves to be obliterated’

Well that way of thinking is nearly as crude as the torah. Anti-semites hate all Jews, but only a portion of Jews are so morally regressed that they believe in their own racial superiority! Yes, those who believe God said all this on top of a mountain, or through the mouths of medieval ‘sages’ tend to be somewhat arrested…

 

Yonah Lazar said…

menashe hakatan is ruling against the beer hagolah? is he writing that lo signov doesnt apply to goyim, which even the yam shel shlomo applies midrabannan at least? cant be he was that ignorant.

 

gotta hand it to Shmarya for posting the picture of the dead Syrian children, which exposes the true ghastliness of this way of thinking.

 

Editor said…

“BS–you cant steal from a non-jew, either. Where are these people coming from? Are they completely ignorant?

Posted by: Yonah Lazar | August 30, 2013 at 01:54 PM”

No. Actually, the normative halakhic position on saving life is, unfortunately, what was posted in Yiddish above.

We generally don’t follow it because if we don’t save them, they won’t save us and might in fact kill us. This is openly stated in rabbinic literature.

As for stealing, Menashe Hakutan ruled that you can steal from the government (and I think from “goyyim” as well) as long as you don’t get caught.

Lots of haredi criminals rely on that peak.

 

seymour said…

not saying that ios what people do, just saying what halhacha states

 

Reuven said…

What is the source of this halacha

 

seymour said…

so you CAN even violate sabbath to save a non-jew.

Posted by: Yonah Lazar | August 30, 2013 at 02:32 PM

YES but NOT because it is the right thing to do, to save another humane life. No, that is not the reason, it is because if found out some harm might happen to Jews. If one knows it can never be found out then let him die.

Think about that before you comment.

 

Yonah Lazar said…

so you CAN even violate sabbath to save a non-jew.

 

seymour said…

not sure about the above but one cannot violate shabbos to save a goy. But you can since it mighty cause harm to Jews if it is found out

 

Yonah Lazar said…

BS–you cant steal from a non-jew, either. Where are these people coming from? Are they completely ignorant?

 

anuran said…

Is this true? If it’s not, the people reading should have torn him a new one. If it is, the antisemites are right, and the Jewish religion deserves to be obliterated

 

Gollum said…

And for more warm fuzzies from The Torah visit the Daat Emet page on Gentiles in halacha!

 

Yonah Lazar said…

But that’s not true–Jews are obligated to save non-Jews. What on Earth is this guy talking about?

 

Sarek said…

I would also like to make up rules and laws as I go along. How do I get this authority?

 

I’m pretty sure what he just said falls along the lines of a chilul Hashem.
Anti-Semitism, while often reprehensible, can sometimes be understandable thanks to vile cretins like this guy, or those Breslovers desecrating the Jesus statue/insisting it be removed in Ukraine. It doesn’t justify anti-Semitism, but it explains some of it

 

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